This week, I've been reading the 1977 book "In Search of Butch Cassidy" by Larry Pointer, which attempts to prove this startling theory: That Butch Cassidy did not die in a shootout in Bolivia in 1908, but assumed a new name, William T. Phillips, and lived a quiet life in Spokane until his death in 1937.

It's fascinating thesis. I'm still on the fence about the conclusion, but it certainly makes a compelling yarn. The author's theory is largely based on a long, rambling manuscript written by the elderly Phillips entitled "The Bandit Invincible."

It purports to be a biography of Cassidy, who Phillips claims to have known "since childhood." It is written in the third person. Yet Pointer is convinced that it is a thinly disguised autobiography, and that Phillips writes only as Cassidy himself could have written.

The facts themselves are contradictory. Yet, as I approach the two-thirds point of the book, I find the psychological aspects of the manuscript intriguing. It essentially sounds like a long apology, in which the writer is keen on explaining that Cassidy was forced into the bandit life by powerful interests (large stockmen, railroads, bankers) and that once he was forced into it, he had no choice but to play that life as well as he could. He is at pains to say that Cassidy was loved by kids, dogs and the "little people" of the West and did not harm anyone in his escapades. It often sounds more like a self-confession/rationalization than a biography, and it rings true with Pointer's contention that Phillips was Cassidy himself.
The manuscript also lapses, briefly, into the first person a couple of times.

Yet after Pointer's book came out, a number of other articles and books refuted his theory, some of them claiming it was all nothing but a fraud.

This Butch Cassidy mystery will be the subject of one of my bi-weekly history columns in The Spokesman-Review in the next month. Meanwhile, I am interested in hearing if anybody familiar with this controversy has any opinions on the veracity of Pointer's claims.

Was William T. Phillips actually Butch Cassidy?

No, he wasn't. There was a show on History Channel over the Thanksgiving holiday that investigated the theory that Butch Cassidy was William Phillips. There were a number of things that discredited Phillips, number one being their hand writing was different.

The key to refuting the theory is not to check to see what similarities Phillips had to Cassidy but to check out Phillips' life prior to 1908. There should be enough documentation to figure out if there WAS a William T. Phillips prior to 1908, which would eliminate him using the "can't be two places at once" proof.

As I recall, there was a story about 15 (?) years ago about two houses on the north side that were joined together by an underground tunnel. And one of those houses was William T. Phillips'.

http://newsdredge.blogspot.com/

As I recall, there was an article about this years ago that also included a picture showing the resemblance between Cassidy and Pillips. At least there was a photo of Pillips. With the new technology, perhaps it could be ascertained if the bone structure is similar. I am not sure if the photo was in the Spokesman Review.

Is there anyone around that was well acquainted with this William Phillips character?

In reply to Greg Delzer's well-taken point: Pointer concluded that there was no documentary evidence that William T. Phillips existed prior to 1908 -- no birth certificate, no baptismal record, nothing.
However, it begs the question of how hard Pointer looked. I will try to find out whether Pointer's debunkers succeeded in finding any evidence of Phillips' prior life.

Here is an interesting piece collecting various theories on post-Bolivian Butch sightings:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/parker.htm

Heres the video that had comparison between Cassidy & Phillips.
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=73027

In the video they analyzed the two men's facial structure & concluded that some significant surgery would be needed to reshape Cassidy's prominant brow & jawline to look like Phillips. Surgery that was not possible at the time.

I'm a bit more inclined to believe a more reputable source, ie; History Channel.

My husband & I are pretty much convinced, Phillips was Cassidy, both of us lifetime readers of Western History. Several of the most promninent Forensic Pathologists have gone to Boliva to try and prove or dispprove the Boliva shooting death of Cassidy, non of the remains given to them there have ever proven to be those of Cassidy. Those interested in Cassidy's story, should search out some old articles by a former Professor, at the University of Montana, Bozeman. I believe his name was Dunlenty or similiar spelling.
Phillips/Cassidy, went back to Lander, Wyoming around 1926, those that had known him before as Cassidy prior to his supposid death in Bolivia, all stated seeing him and traveling with him. Lander at that time had to have been a tiny litle town where everyone usually knows or knows of everyone else. Lander is not a large city today. The Indian woman Cassidy had had a affair with years before, he gave a ring while visiting Wy.in the 20's. Within the last two years, a old gentleman that lived in Peaceful Valley, stated to his elderly nephew, that Phillips had worked for his, wife's father. The Father as I remember contracted some sort of mechanist work for Riplet, early day inventor of the Tramway up at Chewelah. A Author friend in England wrote to me within the last 5 years, wanting me to check out where Phillips was buried here around Spokane, apparently Phillips died at the old poor folks home in Spangle. At the time I was working on transcribing cemeteries for US Genealogy projects. I discovered those from the poor farm were sent to different cemeteries all around Spokane, however someplace I ran across that Phillips was cremated. I found it interesting that in far off England my friend, a author of a book, about Buffalo Bill's Wild West Shows that appeared in England, was interested in the mystery of Phillips/ Cassidy here in Spokane. My only dubious thoughts in the past were the photos of Phillips taken here in Spokane. As a graphic artist, I have worked up close and personal with thousands of photos manipulating them on my computer, the Spokane photos look like a older & slimmer version of Cassidy. Photos of Cassidy, taken in his youth bother'd me these were prison photos taken in Wyoming while Cassidy was incarcerated there. He was much heavier, prison food I am sure consisted high in carbs in those days. Here is a connection that I have pondered for many years, a elderly gentleman gave me some original photos of Harry Tracey in death, near Davenport, Wa. where he was shot by local Law enforcement. I wondered on this for years, why would Harry Tracy be trying to escape from the law to Eastern Washington? My father born in 1904, lived most of his life at Deer Lake, with his extended family. I remember in my youth him telling me there was a cabin back of Loon Lake that belonged to Harry Tracy. From all accounts, Cassidy & Tracy were not all that close, however they both traveled with the same ilk, and at one time spent time at the Hole in the Wall, a gang hold out near Kaycee, Wy. If Phillips was Cassidy? there would seem to me there would have been some sort of connection here in Eastern Washington for him to choose to come here, of all other locations in the world he could have chosen to hide out. In the basement of a hundred year old house here in Spokane, my mother was left a huge steamer trunk, like one would use to leave the country in the early 1900's, the woman that lived in the house, had lived there all her life, her father had built the home, she passed away there. On the very end of this trunk is the name CASSIDY, if only this trunk could speak.........

The site posted earlier describes some pretty big physical issues with Cassidy being Phillips.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/parker.htm

Sounds Phillips was over 6' tall & Cassidy was several inches shorter.

It also says that the Spokesman Review just reprinted an article written from a WY paper...... spreading the rumour. How unlike them.... ;)

Would be interesting to find out more. Where is this house the Phillips lived in? Is there really a tunnel under it?

So how did this woman who was born & died in the same house come across this old trunk? And why would an outlaw fleeing the country from the law, print his own name on his luggage?

In researching my novel and movie script “The Last Bandit,” I became thoroughly acquainted with the reality and myth surrounding the Cassidy/Phillips quandary. I interviewed an elderly gentleman about five years ago who actually knew Phillips; and although this gentleman had reservations about Phillips’ story, his daughter and son-in-law were reasonably convinced Phillips was indeed the outlaw. I can say without hesitation the daughter and son-in-law had some substantive evidence in favor of Phillips being Cassidy. Dan Buck and Anne Meadows have made something of a cottage industry out of debunking this intriguing Spokane myth. From their initial research and connection with Dr. Clyde Collins Snow and the PBS series Nova, Buck and Meadows have made a valiant, albeit unconvincing, effort to disprove Phillips and Cassidy were the same man. Perhaps the debunkers operate on the theory that if an opinion is repeated often enough, a large portion of people will accept it as fact. In a letter in the Los Angeles Times of February 24, 2001, Bill Betenson, great-grandson of Lula Parker Betenson (Butch Cassidy’s sister), revealed that the majority of the Parker family believes Cassidy returned to the U. S. to live out his life. I’m in Betenson’s camp. Spokane in the early twentieth century would have been the perfect place for an outlaw to adopt a new identity—a busy railroad town, close to the Canadian border would have been an easy exit for someone always looking over his shoulder.

My Grandmother's mother, Christina Gillies Levi, was sister to Butch's mom and therefore Lula Betenson, Butch's sister and my Grandmother were cousins and were very fond of each other.

Whenever Grandmother would speak of Butch she would lower her voice into a whisper and act as though someone might be outside listening. She'd laugh and joke about it but it was a cause for both pride,shame and mystery. My Grandmother believed he was still alive and I still can recall the pain and true discomfort it evoked in her to talk about the sorrow it brought to all the family. It was family history to her.

Grandmother's father and uncle were mentioned as the 'Levi brothers 'in I believe Pointer's book but I can't remember now if it was in one of the other books that came out around the same time a few years ago. The two brothers ran succesful cattle herds in Southern Utah. They also owned the Milford City Bank together. Lula was quoted as I recall .. that they saw a black car coming up the road to their place in Circleville and thought it was the Levi brothers but it turned out to be Butch on a visit. I always wondered if Butch was laundering money through the bank or had provided the funds to get them started.

My Grandmother's father, Karl Levi .. i hid Butch out at the family ranch south of Beaver, Utah on several occasions. This ranch was the Parker ranch before my Grandfather bought it and it's where my Grandmother grew up.

Karl had a brother that ran with the gang a bit. The family tells that this brother would run with the gang and once took a trip into Old Mexico with them but failed to ever return.

On several occasions Karl left for weeks at a time on what he said was cattle buisness and when asked where he'd gone he told my grandmother he ran a few herds up in Canada. The family wondered why Grandfather Levi would go north into Washington state and Canada since it seemed a long way to go to raise a herd of cattle. It was treated as a mystery.

Grandmother asked me to drive her over to Circleville to visit Lula but I always found something else to do and thought visiting relatives was boring.

I'm sad I never took her.

I am a native New Englander who settled in Spokane 20 years ago after a brief five years in California. I am often struck by the many "parallel universe" similarities between my hometown and Spokane. Here I see Spokane attempting to lay claim to the macabre celebrity of Butch Cassidy. My hometown continues to pose the question, "Did Lizzie Borden do it?" Perhaps, Miss Borden, and Mssrs. Phillips and Cassidy and Samuel Clemens once met on a Mississipi riverboat!

There could be a novel in here, somehow.

I received the following e-mail on Dec. 9 from Paul Applegate, whose grandmother was Butch Cassidy's sister. Here is what Applegate has to say:
Dear Jim: There have been a number of articles on the website "Back to Inland Northwestern History/Archives: November 2005" regarding Butch Cassidy that I think needs some clarification. I am the oldest grandson and my mother Pauline was the oldest daughter of Lula Parker Betenson, the sister of Butch Cassidy. Both my mother and I were born in her house in Circleville UT. I spent a lot of time in her house when I was growing up in the 1940's. I also spent a lot of time in the old Parker house where my great uncles Steve and Rawlins Parker lived. I don't claim that I am familiar with all of Butch's exploits because the family was always close mouthed about him until my grandmother started talking about him.

But I can tell you I know more about the family than any of those who write about him. My grandmother, Lula, was not the average person and was more intelligent than most. She was a State Senator and chairman of the democratic party in Piute County for 26 years. She was religious and her honesty was unquestioned, at least by those people who knew her. Butch Cassidy did return to the US and spent a very short time in Circleville. Some authors have said that the majority of the family do not believe he came back The family I know and those who were actually there when he did come back, including my grandmother who cooked for them, know that he came back.

When Dr. Snow, the forensic expert, went to Bolivia to check out the assumed grave of Butch and Sundance, he used my brothers hair for his DNA comparison. Of course it turned out the person in the grave proved not to be Butch Cassidy.

Butch was smart in that he planned his activities very carefully and as a result eluded getting caught. He was smart enough to know when it was time to stop. To think he was dumb enough to commit a robbery in a foreign country, being a foreigner, with probably having little knowledge of the language, going to a small town asking for food, without a relay of horses, and being killed by just three men hunting him down doesn't come close to the way he lived for so many years. It is also noteworthy that the Pinkerton agency didn't close the case for several years after the supposed robbery in Bolivia took place. When Buck and Meadows went to the expense of going to South America and not finding what they wanted perhaps a little "embroidering" was done to the truth to make the trip worth while and also benefit from the continuing question of his disappearance.

There is a brief history of him in a book "A History of Circleville, Utah" by Rollo Lorin Fullmer whose family were longtime residents of Circleville, that comes closer to the truth than any book or article written about him. In the History channel's program entitled "Investigating History, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" I was given little time to talk about the family. You might take some of the rest of the program with a grain of salt.

The mystery of Butch Cassidy is where did he go after he left Circleville, since his family would never talk about, NOT if he was killed in Bolivia.

I would be interested in hearing from the person whose grandmother's mother was Christina Gillies Levi since Butch's mother was Ann Gillies Parker. Would you be from around Beaver or Parowan by any chance?

I was born in Circleville, grew up in Kanab, and now live in Albuquerque.

Written by: Paul Applegate
December, 2005

Whether William T. Phillips was Butch Cassidy, or for that matter whether the outlaw died in Bolivia or returned home safe and sound, will probably never be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.

Nonetheless – and Lula Parker Betenson’s story notwithstanding – more members of the Parker family expressed the opinion that Butch did not return home than that he did.

You can read our article, “Did Butch Cassidy Return? The Family Can’t Decide,” at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/parker.htm

As for William T. Phillips, he was Butch Cassidy in the same sense that Paul Newman was.

Dan Buck

The evidence that Phillips was not Cassidy is strong, and is best expressed Dan Buck, in his several articles and in personal correspondence to you.

Sincerely,

Richard Patterson
Author, Butch CassidY: A Biography
University of Nebraska Press, 1998.

Read the newspaper article with interest today. Nothing is said about the son of William T. Phillips. IN the 1920 Census a "baby may adopt" with a birth place of Idaho is listed.
Then in 1930 there is a son of William T. Phillips listed as William b. 1920. What happened to him? Could his family shed some light?

Karen Querna--
The Phillips's adopted son William R. Phillips was alive as of the mid-1970s, when Larry Pointer was writing IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY. He was apparently of the opinion that his father was the famous outlaw. William T. Phillips's wife, Gertrude, however -- whom one might consider to have been in a better position to know -- told historian Charles Kelly in 1938 that her husband was not Butch Cassidy. She did say that he knew Cassidy from his days in the West.

This coincides with an account published in 1942: Wyoming rancher James Regan said that he knew both Cassidy and Phillips, but they were two different people. He recalled that Phillips visited him in 1934, looking for buried treasure. Wyoming writer Blanche Schroer told us that the woman accompanying Phillips on that excursion, Mary Boyd Rhodes, later said she and Phillips "had planned the phony identity" scheme.

Dan Buck

As relatives of the Sundance Kid, we have followed with a great deal of interest the stories of Phillips and Cassidy. We have found that the Buck and Meadows research has uncovered enough tangible proof in both Argentina and Bolivia to convince us that Butch did indeed die in a shootout with local police in November 1908. As for proving who Phillips was, a number of us have researched that for years. He may very well have been the Billy Phillips from Globe, Arizona, who testified in a murder case involving an outlaw friend of Cassidys; but so far that proof is as difficult to find as digging up the right bones has been. To us, the bigger mystery is who was Ethel, aka Etta Place.

I read recently in an older book or pamphlet on local history at the Sandpoint library that Butch Cassidy spent a summer working (as a logger?) on the Upper Pack River north of Sandpoint. This was before he went to South America. This is a little bit off topic - but, I can't find that reference again. Anyone familiar with that story?

Catherine --
Have never come across any story of Cassidy working as a logger, or of being in Washington. (William T. Phillips storles don't count.)

Some of Cassidy's associates -- Matt Warner, Tom McCarty, and others -- were in Washington in the early 1890s, but as bandits. An excellent account of that chapter in outlaw history is IN PURSUIT OF THE McCARTYs (2001), by Jon M. Skovlin and Donna McDaniel Skovlin.

Dan Buck

Sandpoint is in northern Idaho. What I read was a first hand account of someone having worked with Butch Cassidy on the Upper Pack River one summer. Maybe before 1900? It is a logging area but Cassidy may have taken care of everyone's horses or something like that.

I went back to the library but couldn't find where I had read that. Hoping someone else will remember.

Anyway, if that could be verified it would have put him in the Spokane area earlier in his life. And made it more likely for his return to the area.

Also - are there any accounts of Cassidy ever visiting or writing about Spokane?

Catherine--
Sorry. Not sure why I was thinking Washington. Cassidy was in far southeastern Idaho in August 1896, when he and two friends held up the bank in Montpelier, but they dashed back towards the Wyoming border.

Richard Patterson's exemplary BUTCH CASSIDY: A BIOGRAPHY (1998) has a chapter on the Montpelier robbery and aftermath.

I don't recall ever seeing anything that puts Cassidy in or near Spokane -- not that it would help matters.

Actually, the link is the other way round. Phillips lived in Wyoming in the 1890s where he apparently knew Cassidy. Decades later, after he had moved to Spokane, he got the idea to impersonate the outlaw, more as a lark than anything. Similarily, bigfoot started as a prank. Pranks grow into legends.
Dan

P.S. I know I'll hear from the Bigfoot devotees taking exception to my saying that the hairy mountain man was conceived as a prank.

Oh, I should answer the original question.

No I don't think Phillips was Cassidy because of the height difference. Cassidy's height, I assume, was well documented. It must have been from what I have read about the Pinkertons. So, if we know Phillips height - what is the reference for that - the death certificate? people who knew him? If we know his height we can rule him out. From what I have read here that is what has been done. Case closed.

But I still think the story is fascinating. I have read the 1977 book and driven by Phillips old home in Spokane. I really want to read that book he wrote. Where is it? Online by any chance?

Catherine--
The American Heritage Center at the University of Wyoming has a copy of "The Bandit Invincible." It's not a book but more on the order of a monograph. You can probably purchase a photocopy from the AHC.

Your question about the respective heights of Phillips and Cassidy is excellent. I had to paw through our files for the answer. According to a medical exam Phillips took in 1925, when he applied to become a Freemason, he was 5' 11". On the application itself, which Phillips filled out in 1926, he stated that his height was 5' 10 1/2" and that his age was 61.

(By the way, I do not believe this information has ever been published. In Pointer's 1977 book, IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY, he mentions briefly that Phillips became a Mason in 1926, but didn't include any vital statistics from his application. Jim Dullenty, Pointer's collaborator at one time, included the documents in a package of material, "The Butch Cassidy Collection," that he published in 1986.)

When Cassidy entered the Wyoming Penitentiary in 1894, at age 28, he was measured as 5'9". This would mean (assuming for a moment that Cassidy was Phillips)that as Cassidy became elderly, he grew taller, which is a miraculous reverse of the normal aging process.

Dan

Having grown up in Telluride, CO (the first reported robbery by Butch) and later moved to Spokane and read “In Search of Butch Cassidy”, I have been intrigued by the Cassidy/Phillips relationship - so much that I have devoted much of the last fifteen year’s summers investigating the facts throughout Wyoming, Colorado and Utah.

Let me fire up the debate right off the bat by pointing out that our basis for understanding Butch Cassidy’s past is based on ridiculously flawed research submitted in a book by Charles Kelly in the late 1930s. To many, Kelly created the Cassidy bible that most rely heavily on today. Aside for the fact that most of Kelly’s work was undocumented and hearsay (no footnotes or supporting documents), Kelly put little effort in true field work. He did not know Cassidy’s real name or his number of siblings. Given that Robert (Butch) was the eldest, most siblings remained to be interviewed in Kelly’s day. When Kelly put Cassidy at the Telluride robbery he could produce no factual evidence that Cassidy was involved. At best he presented weak circumstantial evidence that would have been laughable in court. There were never any witnesses that placed Cassidy in Telluride other than Matt Warner (year later), a reported accomplice who I will discuss in a moment. No warrant was ever issued for Cassidy’s involvement in Telluride. Keep in mind that Cassidy had lived in Telluride for the most part of four years and was well known as a horse racer and mule skinner. The famous photo of the Telluride bank that was robbed in Kelly’s book was the wrong building entirely. Had he presented his flawed material as a dissertation to a knowledgeable professor, he would have been rejected, yet many rely on his work as gospel. Even worse, some researchers pick and choose what to believe from Kelly’s work. I contend that if you can show a blatant disregard for facts on one page, you have to be suspect to the facts on the next page. The Kelly book provides leads, but I rely little on its true accuracy.

When Blanch Lundstrom, Spokane friend of Bill Phillips, contacted Kelly with her claim and evidence Cassidy and Phillips were the same, Kelly refused to even investigate the possibility. I have a copy of the letter. In fact, according to Henry Sigg, last known Spokane acquaintance of Phillips I interviewed, neither Kelly nor Anne Meadows ever took the time to research in Spokane. Both discounted the possibility from the start. Why? It could discount the accuracy of their books and cause lost sales.

As for the handwriting expert contributed by Ann Meadows, ask her how many handwriting exports reviewed Phillips and Cassidy’s work before she found the one she quoted. Next, Meadows quotes her choice of plastic surgeons the same as she does the handwriting expert. But there are many possibilities for the face difference. It is reported that Cassidy chewed tobacco heavily. Further, I was told that facial features such as ear and nose placement and size change dramatically for some as they age aside from plastic surgery.

My understanding is that more handwriting experts and plastic surgeons claim Phillips could be Cassidy than claim he could not. Watching a recent Discovery channel documentary on Cassidy and Phillips, even Meadow’s hand picked expert does not say Phillips was not Cassidy – just that it is unlikely. To sidestep the experts she ignores, Ms. Meadows relies on discrediting all hand writing experts on the basis that everyone learned handwriting from the same grammar book therefore all writing looked the same. Either handwriting analysis is a science or it is not. Good researchers present all evidence and not just the selective points that support their contentions.

As for the Matt Warner book claiming Cassidy robbed Telluride, let’s point out the facts. First, you cannot bank on both Warner and Kelly. Their accounts vary far too much. Who is more accurate? Warner never put names in his manuscript to “protect his friends”. Names were added by his wife after Warner’s death to publish his manuscripts and make money. Also, accounts indicate that Warner was far more boisterous than factual. Warner claims that brothers Dan, Albert and Roy (Butch) Parker robbed Telluride together. He also claimed that Dan and Albert we friends of his in later years in Utah. But according to newspaper accounts and that of the Parker family, Albert Parker died during a freak horse accident in Telluride a year after the robbery. Why would Albert remain in a city he had robbed?

Warner’s manuscripts also claims that prior to the robbery he and Cassidy traveled around the Four-Corners area racing horses. In fact, for six months, up until just two months before the robbery, Cassidy sat in a Montrose jail on trumped up horse theft charges. He was not racing horses with Warner. There are accounts that Cassidy rode to Johnson County, Wyoming after being released to start a

Tom Affholter condemns Charles Kelly for writing a book based “ridiculously flawed research,”adding that it is mostly “undocumented and hearsay.” Let’s leave aside for the moment that Affholter is demanding from outlaw history an exactitude the field cannot deliver, given that criminals by their very nature lead secretive, duplicitous lives. Nonetheless, Kelly did the best he could at the time, by interviewing Cassidy’s friends and neighbors. He quotes a number of his informants by name, and took the trouble to issue a revised edition in 1959, based on corrections he received from his readers.

By the way, I am puzzled by Affholter’s complaint that Kelly’s book has a photograph of the wrong bank building in Telluride. There is no photograph at all of Telluride in Kelly’s book – in either the 1938, 1959, or 1996 editions.

After railing at Kelly, Affholter himself offers hearsay evidence to support the case that William T. Phillips was Butch Cassidy: “it was reported that Cassidy chewed tobacco heavily” – by whom? – and “I was told” – by whom? – that such a habit could rearrange a person’s facial features. In the annals of deus ex machina, chewing tobacco wins the price.

What’s wrong with Phillips’s own explanation, that he went to Paris for plastic surgery? Here are Phillips own words (writing in the third person) in THE BANDIT INVINCIBLE: “At Paris he entered a private hospital where he submitted to several minor operations. Three weeks left the hospital he could see Verry [sic] little trace of his old self in the mirror, so clever had the transformation been worked out.” (Quoted in Larry Pointer, IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY, pp. 213-14.)

Given the state of plastic surgery in 1908 and given that Phillips’s head is smaller than Cassidy’s, Phillips’s explanation is preposterous, but it is what he wrote. Is Affholter saying that Phillips lied in his manuscript, and stayed home, diligently masticating Mail Pouch until his face rearranged itself? Please. Affholter’s version is more ludicrous than Phillips’s.

Affholter says that we handpicked the questioned document examiner and plastic surgeon who were interviewed on the UNSOLVED HISTORY documentary, “Butch and Sundance,” broadcast on the Discovery Channel in 2004. Wrong. We had nothing to do with their selection.

Finally whether or not Butch Cassidy participated in the 1889 Telluride bank robbery can never be known with certainty, since the bandits escaped. But it is worth mentioning that a number of other people, aside from Matt Warner and Charles Kelly, indicated that Cassidy was involved. One was rancher Harry Adsit, who had employed Cassidy and given him the horse he later used in his escape. Another was Frank Silvey, a Telluride old-timer interviewed in 1936. And a third was Gunnison County Sheriff Cyrus “Doc” Shores, in a 1929 interview. Shores said he got the story from James Clark, who was the Telluride marshal at the time of the holdup.

For an excellent discussion of the Telluride incident, see Richard Patterson, BUTCH CASSIDY: A BIOGRAPHY, pp.12-41.

Dan Buck

You list numerous bits of fiction and comments from the "foremost authority" one Daniel Buck. Perhaps he would supply you with comments he has received from me about his wonderful book about digging up Butch. Which as we know, he didn't.

My wife and I recently had the wonderful experience of meeting and becoming friends with some of Butch's relatives. They are grand sons, great,grand sons and daughter of Lula Parker Betenson. All are very fine people.

We also had a great time with Dora Flack, who with Lula, wrote Butch Cassidy, My Brother.

We also spent three unforgetable days at the Ekker ranch, at Robbers Roost, with the niece of the wondeful author, Pearl Baker.

The point of all this, is these so called authors and self appointed authorities, should deal with facts. Not what someone else has written, who knows no more of the thruth, than they do.

I was pleased to see the comments from Paul Appelgate. I have spoken with him and his wife and was happy, awhile back to inform the producers and "experts" of one of the documentaries, that they felt was evenly balanced, where the "foremost authorites, Buck and Meadows" were shown 30 to 40 times, Paul Appelgate, a family member, was shown something like 2 or 3. Well balanced, huh?

Maybe one of the experts could clarify the story of meeting Butch, in the 39's, as was told by Mr. Merril Johnson.

Thank you for your time. I have been to Utah 4 times learning of Robert Leroy Parker, and meeting his relatives. If his great nephew is going to buy my dinner, I hope to go again.

Bob Jayne
Brownsburg, IN

First I apologize for my poor spelling in my prior, hurried email, I do want to include one additional idea for those seeking where Butch Cassidy is buried. There is a fine gentleman, who has lived all his life in Circleville, Utah. As a young boy, he delivered the paper to Max Parker, Robert Leroy Parker's Dad. This gentleman will gladly tell you were Butch is buried. He knows of at least five locations. Oh yes, none are in South America.

Bob Jayne

Not doubt Bob Jayne had many delightful visits with the people he mentioned, but what exactly that has to do with the subject at hand is hard to determine. Most members of the Parker family, especially from Butch Cassidy’s generation, have indicated that he did not return from South America. Even some of Lula Parker Betenson’s own kin registered disagreements with her story. Her brother-in-law said that he was of the opinion that Butch died in South America. One of her sons told a relative that Lula’s tale of the 1925 visit to Circleville was true, while telling another person that the visit never happened.

Merill Johnson’s account of meeting Butch Cassidy in Utah long after his supposed death in Bolivia is one of dozens of such anecdotes. Folklorists call them “personal experience” stories. Elvis sightings fall into that category.

According to the published accounts of the tale (e.g., Harold Schindler, “Butch Cassidy Lives?” Salt Lake Tribune, October 10, 1991), Johnson met the man he thought was Cassidy in July 1941 – not in the 1930s, as Jayne wrote in his post. The 1941 date is inconvenient to Lula Parker Betenson’s account, which is that her brother had died four years earlier, in 1937. Did Johnson meet a ghost?

As for the man who delivered newspapers in Circleville and who, as Mr. Jayne put it, “knows of at least five locations” where Butch is buried, I’m afraid that’s not much of a harvest. We have collected several dozen stories of his final resting spot on three continents, from the 1890s well into the 20th Century. Only one of the stories can be true.

Dan Buck

I've sat back and read the comments and I'm sick and tired of Dan Buck telling us all about the Parker family. I would like to point out he never met Lula Parker Betenson or her son Mark, but he sure seems know everything they ever said about Butch. Even better is when Meadows told us all what Lula thought in the documentary, "Butch Cassidy and the Outlaw Trail". I appreciate the research they have done in South America. They need to stick to that. Work on actually proving something...like Butch was killed in South America, instead of shooting down every point ever made that doesn't agree with your theories.

These same arguments have already been made years ago on the Wild Bunch Webpage.

The Parker family did not speak of Butch death in public. Buck continues to say that most of the Parker family said he did not come back which is simply not true. There is not documentation to support this. There is one 1940's newspaper account of an old timer claiming Max Parker told him he didn't come back, but there is not first person account of this, only hearsay.

The Bucks continue to try and dig up dirt on Lula. They even found an old letter written by her brother-in-law, Glen Betenson that they used in their latest edition of "Digging up Butch and Sundance". It's purely Glen's opinion, but Glen didn't know what happened to Butch. Glen was not close to Lula.

I don't believe that Mark Betenson ever said that Butch didn't come back to some stanger he met. This account comes from Roger McCord whose own honesty is in question, when he has stolen government documents related to Butch from South America.

Mark told me personally and did Lula that Butch Cassidy came back to the U.S. and visited the family in 1925 and died here in the U.S. I tend to believe my own family. Why would they lie to their own family members?

I along with Paul Applegate believe and support our grandmother, Lula and her claims that Butch came back.

This fued has gone on for long enough.

I personally know Bill Betenson and think highly of him. We have spent much time together in Wyoming doing research on Butch and also stay in touch by e-mail and phone . I also know Dan Buck and spend much time in e-mails and by phone with him and respect him greatly.

Both of these men know what I am sitting on. I also know Mark Boardman ,Donna Earnst ,Pat Patterson ,Jim Dullenty, Pointer,DeArment and all the other people involved in this. And they know ME!

Since 1996 I have tried to get these people to hear what I have researched and found on the REAL story behind Butch and others, here where I live in Lander WY.I have FACTS!

Not one of you will ever get the real story until you come see what I have. I am not a writer and as hard as I try I cannot do it . I tried to get several of you to help co-author a book. No one was interrested.

At this point I can only assume that you don't want the truth because it will tarnish your image or ruin book sales.

Butch did not die in Bolivia nor South America. Nor was he Phillips nor did he die in Spokane. But he did die in the Northwest area of US after 1925.

Plus this story is much bigger then Butch. I have spent the last 20 years doing research on all this in Wyoming at the source. Many of you know I have recieved death threats if I try and publish my data.I backed off for several years and hoped to move from here .But have not been able to do it. I am 64, have a bad heart and other medical problems and I am poor.

However I have more on Butch and the real story of what happened then anyone alive. If I die it will die with me. Is this what you all want?

Here is my challenge to all you big time writers and researchers.
Come here this summer to Lander and have a grand meeting with me. ALL of you at the same time. The people from Wola and Nola too.Plus the guy who writes for Spokane Review.

I will then in detail with documented evidence tell you all the whole story. Over 30 murders and why Butch was involved. Who Etta Place really was with proof on her also.And all the other people you argue about endlessly.

Plan on at least 2 or 3 days as this is not a piddly amount of info .
If you chose not to come then shut up for once and for all on the whole subject because none of you have the real facts.

And you all have to promise to be civil to each other and me.

Let me know. There is a great big new motel with conference room and pool right across from where I live.

And remember to be discreet. Lander/Fremont County does not want this info published as they want to retain the image of their precious Butch and his friends.Many of the descendants still live in WY.

All I ask is at some point if you ever do write about it or discuss it you will mention my name as the source. I just want credit for 20 years of hard work that I will never get paid for.

Pat Schroeder ,Lander ,Wy.

My goodness, for a man who has been dead for 60 to almost 100 years, Mr. Parker sure continues to cause some folks to get real defensive.

May I first say, I never intended to imply that I was on the same level with Mr. Buck. (Thank God for that) I certainly am not an expert or “foremost authority”, probably not even just a plain old authority. But I will try and respond to Mr. Buck’s comments about my incorrect statements.

Mr. Buck is correct to point out how many more burial sites he knows about, than the gentleman in Circleville, Utah, who delivered the paper to Max Parker, Butch’s dad. My number of 5 compared to Mr. Buck’s “several dozen” Big difference. Not only in number but in attitude. There were about 8 of us there when we all had a good laugh at how silly it was, this goose chase to find where Butch is really trying to rest. We all had a good time. Shame you are missing out on all the fun, Mr. Buck.

My poor display of numbers did remind me of another disparity in number totals. I believe this so-called documentary was on either the History or Discovery channel. Mr. Buck, you win again. The show had, of course Mr and Mrs Buck, the experts and “foremost authorities” and a member of the Parker/Betenson family, Mr. Paul Applegate. As you would expect, equal time was given to both sides. Again I am not doing very good with numbers. The experts were shown and listened to, between the two of them, 30 to 40 times. Mr Applegate appeared either 2 or 3 times. Being an old retired banker, I am used to having things balance, I am still trying to get the appearances to balance.

I had partially prepared a number of other remarks but I believe a Mr. Betenson, who I think is a relative of Mrs. Lula Parker Betenson, therefore also related to Robert L. Parker, has very properly put all this in proper order and you Mr. Buck, in your proper place. Many of us salute Mr. Betenson, if for nothing more than standing up for what is right. Mr. Buck, you may have to read his comments a few times for it to sink in, even then, there is doubt that you will have a clue as to the meaning of his words. Sort of sad, isn’t it?

Hopefully none of Mr. Merrill Johnson’s friends or family will see your childish remarks regarding Mr. Johnson’s story of meeting Butch Cassidy, in southern Utah in ( please supply the date Mr. Buck, I am not good with numbers ) I understand Mr. Johnson was a highly respected State Trooper and I know a friend of mine in Vernal, Utah, whose brother worked for many years with Merrill, will really enjoy your “Elvis sighting” remarks. I can’t help but wonder if any of your crack team of experts also saw Elvis as they were bringing up the remains of Butch or Sundance? Or the remains may have belonged to someone totally apart from your quest. What words of comfort did you send to the family of this deceased man from Germany? I hope they were more polite and considerate than the replies you are known for.

To get more directly to the point, which is very upsetting to many others and myself, the following is related. Since I posted my humble comments on this site, I have received quite a number of e-mails from individuals that apparently have dealt with the “foremost authority” before.

A lady from Oregon:
She was enjoying the comments on the site until Dan Buck joined in. She had heard enough of him before and she stopped going back. That is too bad.

A college professor from the northwest ( isn’t that where Butch is trying to rest? )
This one I think, above all others, really spells out my concerns about Mr. Buck. He had contacted Mr. and Mrs. Buck with some questions regarding their research and I quote him as to the reply he got. “It was the nastiest and most arrogant response I have ever received”. I believe the case is made.

I will bring this to a close, with one question, if I may, for Mr. Buck. You don’t even have to answer it now. In fact I would prefer you wait until we are in front of your fans and supporters. A highly valued item in my collection of Butch “stuff”, is a copy of a letter. This letter is dated, January 7, 1998,( I got these numbers right ). It is from a Mr. Daniel Buck, who resides in Washington, DC. ( area of residence might help explain his habit of running every one down that does not agree with him ). The letter is asking for help and support, regarding the dis- honesty of a Mrs. Lula Parker Betenson. For those of you that don’t know, Mrs. Betenson passed away in 1980. This unbelievable correspondence was sent to the co-author, with Mrs. Betenson, of BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER. Can you believe this? Why in the world would anyone, especially one who already “has proven” his theory, write Lula’s co-author, asking for any help she might be able to give him. This may show just how low a person will go to make a buck. Mr. Buck has for sometime been trying to come up with anything to show Lula did not

tell the truth.

Mr. Buck's letter will not be honored with my disclosing the contents of the co-author's reply. I can tell one short suggestion that was made to Mr. Buck, one that he apparently did not want to hear. I quote, "LET IT REST".

Thank you and my best wishes for you all.

Bob Jayne

Why would my communicating with Dora Flack, the co-author of Lula Parker Betenson’s BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER exercise Mr. Jayne? Flack promptly replied to my query, and then answered some additional questions when I telephoned her a few days later. In her letter, she said that she wouldn’t have written the book if she “hadn’t believed Lula’s story.” But then in my conversation with her a few days later she said: “I honestly believe that [Butch Cassidy] died as Phillips.” She said didn’t have any proof for her conclusion, but said that it stemmed from everything Lula told her.
Lula, of course, said that her brother was not William T. Phillips. One can imagine that the controversy will not be put to rest if Lula is saying one thing and her co-author quite another.
Mr. Jayne himself is stirring the pot by on the one hand expressing support for Lula’s story that Butch died in the Upper Northwest in 1937 and on the other hand by relating Merrill Johnson’s story that he met Butch Cassidy. Johnson had a specific date for his encounter, July 17, 1941. So who is correct, Lula, Flack, or Johnson? They can’t all be right.
Pat Schroeder and I have had a number of email exchanges and telephone conversations over the past few years. She has yet another theory on what happened to Butch Cassidy. But since she has never presented her evidence there’s no way to determine its validity.
Finally, Bill Betenson admirably defends Lula’s story. But the historian’s job is to research, gather information, weigh evidence, and offer conclusions.
Speaking of evidence, there are plenty of people in the Parker family who, in one way or another, indicated that Butch Cassidy never returned home after he went to South America in 1901. Those people include Butch’s father and several of his brothers, as well as Lula’s brother-in-law and one of her sons. That is evidence that should be taken into account in weighing Lula’s story.

As Mr. Buck has chosen, as normal, to ignore the points of my comments that he does not want to deal with, I will again, try and address his remarks.

First though,may I express my sorrow on learning that Mr.Buck is depressed after returning from yet ANOTHER trip to S/A and NOT fiding anything. One would think he would be used to those results by now.

"Communicating" with Dora Flack.This is his description of asking Mrs. Flack, if Lula was a liar. He must assume that Mrs. Flack writes books for liars. This is a true act of class. Do what Mrs. Flack told you and leave her alone.

He mentions a Pat Schroeder as another who has unvalidated information. I have not spoken to Ms. Schroeder, therefore I cannot speak for her, or others. I will leave that duty to Mr. Buck. By the way, when did validation become one of your duties?

Regarding his comments about ALL the Parker family that has told him about Butch, please read Mr. Betenson's (a family member)prior statements. I will add ONE FACT. I was told DIRECTLY by a niece of Butch's, that she was 18 yrs. old before she ever even heard of him. So in truth, the family discussed this subject very little among themselves and most certainly not with someone just out to make a buck.

Thanks are due to Mr Buck for enlighting us as to the duties of a "historian"

#1 RESEARCH(scientific/scholarly investigation)---Looking forward to the start of that.
#2 GATHER INFORMATION---Good
#3 WEIGH EVIDENCE(to balance carefully in the mind)---When was the last time you had your scales checked?
#4 OFFER CONCLUSIONS---NOW I finally know why you call yourself, the "foremost auyhority".
MY CONCLUSION--- I find it odd and extremely negligent that you failed to list the word VERIFY in your "historian" duties. Apparently "foremost authorities" aren't required to perform this function.

A fun story to close.

A neighbor was excavating(sounds better than digging)for a pool last fall and discovered some remains. Knowing I enjoyed Western History,he jokingly asked if this could be Butch Cassidy. I told him I didn't think so. Being rather stubborn, he sent the remains to a lab for extensive testing. Well sad to say, the results were very much like Mr Buck's. But, also he was not deterred. He is going to try and write a book and do a documentary about his discovery. Oh yes, he dad uncovered a German shepherd.
Robert Jayne

Like I said Dan , you all are invited to come here and I will share what I have. I have offered this to many of you and its the same thing .They either want to come and pick it all up and take it with them or like you and Donna come here to the area and completely ignore me.

There is a symposium where you Dan ,Ann and Bill will be speaking at Rock Springs Wy this summer .3 hour drive from me.You have all seen my invite but for some odd reason none of you (except Bill) want to come. Could it be that you really don't want any proof or evidence of any scenario, other then the one you put forward?.

At least Bill has an open mind and considers all evidence on the subject. He is a fine researcher and works at it diligently. Just because he does not put it in a book does not mean he does not have it.And he treats old ladies with kindness and courtesy which goes a long way in this world.
And with me.

I have to wonder about anyone who attacks Bill and his family . Could it be that you all are not related to Butch and there is a certain jealousy over this? Maybe because he gets attention where ever he goes just because of who he is? I know when he came here with me for 4 days they rolled out the red carpet. I showed him places in Wyoming connected to Butch that none of you have seen and only dream about seeing and not in any books.

Even if you dig up the entire country of Bolivia you will not and have not found Butch. Why won't you consider any other opinion on this?.I know it must have been a crushing blow to you when the body you dug up was not Butch nor even Sundance.You placed your name on the line only to be shot down. Much like what happened to Larry and the Phillips farce..

Why do you argue about Lula?. Surely the woman was entitled to her opinion. She is not here to defend herself so you make arguments that are unanswerable.

Dan you need to stop arguing with Ghosts. All these people are ,who may or may not have said something, dead. Why not look at documents and other compelling data that shows where the truth may lay.

I am not trying to taking sides in all this. I have my own side and even tho I have spent 20 years gathering evidence ,it seems no one is interrested .Why is that? Why would anyone rather believe fiction then facts?.Believe me when say that I have the elephant in the room.

Pat

Mr Jaynes. I have two e-mails from you sent last week on Jan 16th . You did not like my response to your questions and comments. Now you say that you have not spoken to me.

I would like to ask on this forum if you are a serious researcher or writer? .Have you actually done any real research on Butch or the others involved in this?.Have you written any articles or books? Do you have any evidence or documents?

Or is your expertise on this subject just because you visited with the family and had a good time?

You mentioned in your e-mail to me that you were raised to believe that "if you can't say anything nice about someone ,don't say anything at all" (quote). I guess that was just hype because you clearly have a dislike for Dan Buck.I won't mention what else you said about him.

This kind of bashing and taking sides ,with whoever you happen to like the most, gets us nowhere.

I suggest, unless you have something concrete to offer, that you stay silent. Your 15 minutes of fame are over and we need to be discussing real actual truths and evidence on the subject..Pat

I know I am just a 23 year amateur Cassidy researcher. I have not published my work or opinions as yet only because, unlike others who have published, I want some conclusive evidence and not a shot in the dark. But don’t confuse a lack of publishing with a lack of either commitment or knowledge. Unlike others, I will admit that there are too many holes to fill after “Digging up Butch”. I have enough material to certainly put into question the work of Ann and Dan as well as Kelly and Warner. If that were my goal I would proceed. Their research is simply an obstacle. But I want the truth no matter if it lies in a hole in Bolivia or someplace in the U.S. I am still bewildered by the title “Digging up Butch….” Shouldn’t it be titled “Digging up a German?” Maybe it was meant as a play on words and if I had published my work I would understand.

There have been scores of books and articles, some good, most bad, on Cassidy. I have made honest and polite efforts to snail mail or email authors and question their outcomes. With respect to Ann and Buck, rather than rationally looking and responding to my questions, I was chastised for questioning the enlightened. I think they believed me some kid rather than a professor. That is certainly a strategic move to avoid holes on one’s work. If I were to take a formalized logic approach, I could tear apart most theories. What I resent is the Argumentum ad hominem approach – avoid the question by attacking the messenger. Unfortunately, you may damn the questioner, but the question generally remains yet unanswered.

Let’s take my criticism of Charles Kelly in a previous thread – Dan Buck makes the comment that I expect Kelly’s work to be flawless. No- I expect Kelly’s work to be factual if he presents something as a fact. I expect him to site sources. I expect him to follow more than one lead if it exists. I expect him to at least know his character’s true name and interview family members. I expect him to be open minded enough to follow up on leads that might discount his work. I promise you that Kelly had far more first-hand access to the truth that anyone today researching. He had the opportunity to interview first-hand accounts that he missed or avoided. He avoided facts much in the same way Ann and Buck avoid questions. He refused to even consider the fact Cassidy did not die in South America. I certainly could be wrong, but I doubt Kelly, Buck and Meadows ever crossed paths. Yet Buck is knowledgeable enough to assess Kelly’s character to make the claim “Kelly did the best he could do at the time.” Are you saying that identifying your references should be optional? I don’t think Ann and Buck did the best they could do at the time in their research. Where’s the body? What about the details made available by Phillips in his manuscript? Ann and Buck would have you believe that Phillips recollected all those details while serving a bartender. Show me any evidence to the fact. They will discount a friend that emailed me about Cassidy looking like he had a mouth of cha. How much time would Cassidy have spent with Phillips to relate one’s life? No Buck – you win the deus ex machina prize. Let me get this straight - Phillips dates were off and you discount his work, yet Warner and Kelly’s work is inaccurate and quote “Affholter is demanding from outlaw history an exactitude the field cannot deliver, given that criminals by their very nature lead secretive, duplicitous lives.” Please excuse me if you seem a bit inconsistent in your observations Buck.

Pat – what do you have to contribute other than what you condemn?

I am more than willing to share and debate details. Dan's emails do not spawn friends.

Pat Schroeder:

I will try and respond to your comments about me.

I never claimed to be anything other than one who loves the history of the Old West, nothing more.

I have not spoken to you and apparently won't. I did send you 2 emails in regard to what you had said on Jan 16. I thought both were rather nice to you.

The first stated that I was just a lover of the Old West, nothing more. I went on to point out that I (and apparently there are others ) don't like the way Mr. Buck responds to those that question or don't agree with him.

For you I added,and I quote, "I wish you well and do hope you get the rewards that you are entitled too." No more, no less.

The second email, not phone conversation, addressed your question of me, by email. It is as follows.

You say, " Mr. Jayne, there are two kinds of people in the world. One will be sweet and nice and kind and tell you lies while feeding you dinner. The other is blunt and too forward or rude but tells you the truth. which one do you want to hear s story from? That is your EXACT question of me. My EXACT answer to you was, neither one and said I treat people like I like to be treated and I deal with the truth.

AGAIN, I added, that I hoped things worked out for you.

I never once claimed I knew anything like the experts or anyone else. I only question the respond tactics of Mr. Buck and now you.

You state in your recent reply, " you did not like my response to your question & comments" I don't believe I asked you a question, and where did I imply I didn't like your comments? There was NOT ONE BAD WORD towards you.

I can't say whether I like Dan Buck or not, I have never met him, I certainly am opposed to his reponse methods of those that question him. (You might read other entries to this site.)

I would certainly apologize for
what ever I said to you that bothered you, I simply can't find anything I said that would offend you.

You might wish to reread what i said, most of it was offering you good wishes. Is it possible you have me mixed up with someone else?

Mr Jayne, What about your reference to Dan Bucks mother? Guess you forgot about that little comment.

Mr Affholter, you also wrote me same day Jan 16 and stated "you do not share the same professional respect for Dan Buck based on his poor communication skills". And "he is very rude". You stated to me a comment from your friend Bozeman Bob (I believe this is Bob Bozeman Bell) who tried to convince you Dan was a good guy. You went on to make other remarks about Dan.

Then you said you believe Cassidy and Phillips were the same person. And you then went on about your own research and the leads you have developed,provided by Mary Boyd.(A full blood Shoshone indian.)

How did she provide that since she is long dead and was married to Rhodes after her fling with many,many cowboys and the illigitimate child she bore. Do you actually know any of the Rhodes and Boyds. I do.

Most of the old timers here knew her for what she was.

You then wanted to know if I would share my research in advance.
Really?? Why would you want any of my research if I do not believe Phillips was Cassidy? Since I told you to come here and get it the same way as all the others will, at the same time, you now attack me on this forum.

Can we at some point have a serious dicussion of the FACTS and stop bashing everyone else.If any of you want to be civil and discuss the facts and documented evidence you may write me .But if you only want to act like catty school children then don't bother.This is so tiresome.

Pat

Ms. Schroeder:

It is nice to finally see some polite,somewhat courteous remarks. I certainly did not mean to overlook saying " Mr. Buck and I did not have the same Mother" What that has to do with attacking someone who was trying to be nice to you, I don't know.

Besides, I am sure he is as glad of this fact as I am.

As I have said from the get-go. Why can't we ALL enjoy this, just please let us ALL remember that each one is entitled to their opinion, and I do believe ( humble,lowly me ) that opinion is all we have. Lets just respect the other people who try and get some enjoyment from this, and when an expert is asked a question, please be decent enough to give a courteous reply, or say, I don't know. Why be so defensive?

I admit I don't know much about Paul Newman and Robert Redford but I try first to speak in a civil tongue, then I reply in like.

I am sorry to have taken 15 minutes of your time, although some have already said they enjoyed my trying to put some enjoyment into this "catty school children" discussion, a lot more than the defensive attacks.

As I am old, I can only hope I live long enought to see this stop. If not, we can always call in Tom Horn.

I do hope my remarks will bring a little smile and not anger.

Mr. Buck:

As for your comments related to me, I would like to “weigh” some your “evidence” related to Lula.

1. “plenty of people in the Parker family, who, in one way or another, indicated that Butch never returned home…”

I being a member of the Parker family would like to say that this is simply not true. How many actual member of the family have you spoken to, besides me? I know that you had some correspondence with a niece who is no longer alive. She was not in Circleville in 1925 and would not know personally if Butch was there. I think you may have had correspondence with some the Applegates who support Lula’s claims. I would say from personal correspondence with my family that the majority does believe Butch came back.

2. “Those people include Butch’s father”.

You continue to say that Butch’s father said he didn’t come back. But there is no “real” evidence to this. I know that you tend to discredit anecdotal evidence, yet you use this to offer your conclusions. I have found no documented proof that Charles Kelly personally interviewed Max Parker, have you? I have seen the 1942 newspaper article that says Max Parker told Jim Regan that Butch didn’t come home. This is truly anecdotal evidence…hearsay. I can find no “first person account”. Even stronger evidence is that Lula said her father saw Butch and told the family to not speak of his return and to go along with the theories that Butch had died in South America.

3. “several of his brothers”.

Again this is purely anecdotal third hand hearsay evidence. This comes from Lula’s niece who was not in Circleville in 1925, who said that she believed the brothers hoped Butch was alive and search for him into the late 1930s. There is a story from Jim Dullenty (who has accused you of not presenting all of the evidence that you have uncovered on Butch) who he had interviewed a cousin-in-law to Lula and claimed Butch came to see his brother Dan in the 1930s.

4. “Lula’s brother-in-law”

I’ve already presented information on Glen Betenson whose letter you have used to sell the latest edition of your wife’s book. Glen was not close to the Parker family and was not privy to family information on Butch.

5. “one of her sons”

This may be your weakest claim of all. I know that you never personally spoke with Mark Betenson, but you do not hesitate to state that he said Butch didn’t come back. You base this on Roger McCord who we know is not the most honest person.

What I do have is first person evidence: Mark Betenson personally told me that Butch came back and that he saw him in 1925!

I do have a problem with self proclaimed historians telling us what a person thought (and never actually meeting them) and implying that they were crazy because it does not agree with your claims.

With all due respect for the body, will one of you people finally find the body of Butch Cassidy and test its DNA so the rest of the world doesn't have to read people bickering back and forth for an hour?

And let us hear some better theories about what happened in November 1908 in San Vicentes. So Butch and Sundance set two other Americans up? Or did two other Americans do the robbery and get killed in San Vicentes...after which Butch and Sundance couldn't believe their luck that others thought that it was they who were dead...and exploited this in order to go back to the USA and lead different lives?

I mean...it does sound stupid that Butch would stay his last night in an outhouse above the tree line...but maybe not. He may have thought that no posse would have followed him there. Wasn't it his MO to flee a robbery by going places posses wouldn't really bother going? Let's hear some more theories what happened in Bolivia please...

I thought readers of this thread might like to read the completed story that I wrote for the Spokesman-Review on Jan. 1, 2006, a month or so after I kicked off this ovbviously controversial subject on this blog. Here's what was published in the paper:

By Jim Kershner

Source: The Spokesman-Review
Sunday,January 1, 2006
Edition: AllZones, Section: D, Page 1

Here’s one of Spokane’s enduring mysteries: Did the outlaw Butch Cassidy return to live out his life in Spokane under the name William T. Phillips? The quick answer: Maybe. Or maybe it’s all bunk.
No one knows for sure or probably ever will.

However, after an energetic debate last month on our Inland Northwest History blog (www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/history/) we thought it was time to bring this mystery up to date and to recap the issue for those who weren’t around in the 1970s. That’s when the debate was raging in Spokane and in Western history circles, sparked by the success of the 1969 movie "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid."

Here’s the gist of the William T. Phillips theory:

•The famed outlaw Butch Cassidy did not die in a shootout in Bolivia in 1908, as is popularly believed. That death was either staged or simply made up to take the heat off one of the most wanted men in America.

• He returned to America and settled down in Spokane under an assumed name with a woman he married in 1908. He worked as a machinist and engineer and even had his own shop.

• Phillips kept the secret for most of his life, but he returned to Wyoming to hunt for loot he allegedly had buried.

• Phillips died of cancer in 1937 in Spokane and was cremated. This is the one single fact, out of all the above, that is beyond dispute. This story first hit newsprint in Spokane in 1940 after a Wyoming state treasurer discovered that a number of people in that state swore that a man named Phillips from Spokane traveled to Lander, Wyo., in 1934 and was instantly recognized by many old friends as Butch himself.

However, the theory didn’t gain traction until 1973 when Spokane Chronicle reporter Jim Dullenty did a multi-part series about the issue. The series’ conclusion was expressed in the headline on the final story: "Summary Leans Toward ‘Yes’ Answer."

The theory made an even bigger national splash with the publication in 1977 of "In Search of Butch Cassidy," by Larry Pointer. This book is based largely on a manuscript written by Phillips himself titled "The Bandit Invincible" in which Phillips claims he was a close friend of Cassidy and tells his life story. Pointer’s book makes a persuasive case that this was actually a thinly veiled autobiography and that Phillips really was Butch Cassidy.

"His book swayed many outlaw writers, including yours truly," writes author Richard Patterson, author of the 1998 book, "Butch Cassidy: A Biography." "However in the two decades since the book was published, generally accepted thinking on the subject has tended to drift in the other direction."

A 1994 book titled "Digging Up Butch and Sundance" by Anne Meadows, contains a detailed debunking of the William T. Phillips theory. For one thing, Meadows and husband Dan Buck found evidence of the existence of Phillips’ mother – in Michigan, not Utah, where Cassidy’s family was from.

More recently, Meadows and Buck have concluded that Phillips’ manuscript was woefully uninformed about Butch’s Bolivian adventures. They also concluded that he couldn’t have returned from Bolivia in time to get married in Michigan in May 1908 under the name of William T. Phillips.

"We suspect that Phillips never got any closer to Bolivia than the map room at the Spokane Public Library," wrote Meadows in a recent e-mail to The Spokesman-Review. "In our view there is no doubt that Phillips was a hoaxer."

Detailing all of the conflicting evidence is beyond our scope on these pages – it has filled books. See lists on D1 for a brief synopsis.

Complicating the issue further is a controversial contention by Cassidy’s sister, Lula Parker Betenson, who adamantly insisted that "Robert," as she called Butch, came to visit her and other family members in Utah in 1925. She said Cassidy told them that the Bolivia shoot-out story was a ruse made up by a friend to take the heat off of Butch and Sundance. He had then settled down "in the Northwest." She said the family later learned he "died in the Northwest in 1937."

Sounds like confirmation of the Phillips story. However, when she told her story in her 1975 book, "Butch Cassidy – My Brother," co-written by Dora Flack, Betenson adds this confounding sentence: "He was not the man who was known as William Phillips, reported to be Butch Cassidy."

So he died in 1937 in the Northwest, but wasn’t Phillips?

"Where he is buried and under what name is still our secret," she wrote.

She took the secret to the grave with her in 1980. (continued below)

(This is the continuation of the Spokesman-Review story in the post above)
Paul Applegate, Betenson’s grandson, sent The Spokesman-Review an e-mail recently from his home in Albuquerque, saying that there is no doubt among the family that Cassidy came back from Bolivia and visited his grandmother in Circleville, Utah.

The only mystery is the question of "where did he go after he left Circleville, since his family would never talk about it," wrote Applegate.

Why has the truth been so hard to root out? For several excellent reasons:

•Cassidy and all of the outlaws from the Hole In the Wall Gang were constantly changing aliases. In fact, the name Butch Cassidy itself was an alias. Cassidy’s real name was Robert LeRoy Parker, although he was also called George. These shifting names are a nightmare for researchers.

• Most of the supposed post-Bolivia sightings of Cassidy were from people who hadn’t seen him for 30 or 40 years and whose memories may have been faulty.

• Phillips was cremated, precluding any DNA testing.

Most others who have studied the issue remain ambiguous. Megan Breen, a former Spokane resident now living in Portland, has written a book and co-written a screenplay about Cassidy entitled, "The Last Bandit."

Does she believe Phillips was Cassidy?

"In all likelihood," she said, and then paused. "Well, I better pull back from that. I think he may have been. Nobody can say with absolute certainty."

Even Dullenty, who helped popularize the Phillips theory in the Spokane Chronicle in the 1970s, is no longer certain.

"I believe it hasn’t been proven one way or the other," said Dullenty, now a reporter at the Lewistown (Mont.) News-Argus. "In Spokane, I leaned toward it. Now, I think it unlikely that Phillips was Butch Cassidy."

TYPE: Column: Inland Northwest History

SIDEBARS:

EVIDENCE IN FAVOR

No definitive proof exists that a "William T. Phillips" existed before 1908, the year Cassidy disappeared

Phillips told a number of people in Spokane he was Butch Cassidy

Phillips wrote a "biography" of Cassidy that often reads like an auto- biography

A number of people reported that Cassidy visited Wyoming in 1934 under the name of Phillips

Cassidy's sister said Cassidy died "in the Northwest" in 1937 - the year Phillips died in Spokane

A handwriting expert found a match between Phillips' and Cassidy's writing

Photos of Cassidy and Phillips bear at least a superficial resemblance

EVIDENCE AGAINST THE THEORY

Phillips' own wife adamantly denied he was Butch Cassidy

Phillips was an engineer, skills unlikely to have been acquired by a ranch hand and outlaw

Evidence of Phillips' mother exists - in Michigan, not Utah

Phillips' "biography" of Cassidy is riddled with errors and fabrications

Cassidy's sister specifically denied that Phillips was Cassidy

A separate handwriting analysis concluded that there was no match

Computer- assisted analysis of photos of Cassidy and Phillips indicate they were not the same man

Add this to the mix: in his preface to the 1988 paperback edition of IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY, Larry Pointer attempted to finesse the research undermining the Philips story that had come to light since his book's 1977 hardcover publication by positing the idea that there was more than one Butch Cassidy: "Which raises the question: How many Butch Cassidy's were there?" (1988 edition: p. x)
If Butch Cassidy was one, and William T. Phillips another (and perhaps someone else still another) the original question -- was William T. Phillips THE Butch Cassidy? -- has vaporized.
Here's my sense: Pointer understood -- I think -- that the weight of the evidence was now that Phillips never lived in South America, never escaped from a shootout in Bolivia, never had plastic surgery in Paris, etc.
Problem is, in the preface Pointer didn't elaborate on his question; he just let it hang there. Nonetheless, it is a not inconsequential development, considering that Pointer is (or was) William T. Phillips's champion.
Dan Buck

Is it possible a higher level has been reached? A level where views and beliefs are presented in a courteous, professional manner, without bashing others, whose beliefs may be different.

I sincerely hope so.

Bob Jayne

I read recently that if we remembered most of what we saw/did/experienced, we'd go nuts. Our little brains can't handle it all. A case in point: A fellow historian emailed me today about Pointer, causing me to pull out our file of correspondence and telecom notes, most from the 1980s. Turns out I interviewed Pointer in 1986 for an article Anne and I were writing for PACIFIC NORTHWEST magazine about the Cassidy-Phillips controversy.

In our PNW article, which still reads fairly well, considering how little we knew in 1987, we boiled Pointer's opinion down to: "Larry Pointer, whose 1977 book helped popularize the Spokane version in the first place, is also less certain of the theory he once promoted: he now believes that there were three 'Butch Cassidys,' one of whom was Phillips."

My interview notes indicate he was referring to the real (or shall we say the original) Butch Cassidy, who is buried in San Vicente; William T. Phillips, who is buried in Spokane; and Robert Parker McMullin, who is supposedly buried in Johnnie, Nevada. The last mentioned Butch was the figment of the fervid imagination of Art Davidson, who wrote a novelized story, "'Sometimes' Cassidy," which circulated in photocopy for some years until being privately published in 1994.

Now you know.

Dan Buck

Bill, here are my thoughts on the questions you raised in your January 23 post.

Question 1: First, I would recommend reading “Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can’t Decide,” published in the WOLA Journal, vol VI, no. 3, Spring 1998, and online here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/parker.htm The theme of the article is the bewildering range of stories, from various members of the Parker family and from others close to Butch Cassidy, about his fate. Lula Parker Betenson’s story of Butch’s return to Circleville in 1925 is given a thorough airing, as are the doubts about her story.

Second, the niece we communicated with said that several of her uncles (that is, Butch’s brothers) searched for him for years without ever finding out what happened to him. She dismissed Lula’s book as “controversial” within the family.
More recently we heard from the granddaughter of one of Butch’s brothers, who told us that both her grandfather and her father believed that Butch died in South America. As you know, a few years ago we found a letter written by a brother-in-law of Lula, in which he said that it was his opinion that Butch died in South America. Finally, Lula’s son Mark has apparently made conflicting statements about the 1925 visit. You say he confirmed it. Another research says he told him that it didn’t happen. Is any of this proof? No, it’s evidence.

High up in our “Did Butch Cassidy Return?” article we write: “Only one relative who lived during Butch Cassidy’s day, his sister Lula Parker Betenson, went on record to state unequivocally that her brother returned, and her story is subject to many a question.” We reviewed what evidence we had collected and concluded that Lula made up the story of Butch’s return. Others might consider the same evidence and conclude otherwise.

Question 2: As for the 1942 newspaper story, it’s published evidence, obviously second hand, indicating what Butch’s father, Maximillian Parker, might have said or believed. But it’s the best evidence there is from the period. A transcript of an interview with Maximillian would be nice, but none has turned up.

Question 3: Jim Dullenty’s interview with Ellnor Parker, as well as other information about what Ellnor might have believed, is discussed in “Did Butch.” According to Dullenty, Ellnor said Butch was William T. Phillips. Lula said he wasn’t Phillips. Again, part of the maze of stories told by various members of the Parker family.

Question 4: A 1970 letter from Lula’s brother-in-law saying that he believes Butch Cassidy did not return and but died in South America, speaks for itself. It’s not proof; it’s evidence.

Question 5: In “Did Butch” we clearly say that the there are two versions of what Mark said, one from you and one from Roger McCord. Then there’s Lula’s version, in her book: “nobody told Mark who the stranger was.” Lula said only later was he told that it was Butch.

That’s the theme of the article, the conflicting and confusing stories told by various family members and others. The evidence is laid out, anchored by 91 endnotes. The endnotes explain the source of the material present in the article – interview, newspaper article, book, etc. The reader can agree or disagree with our conclusions.

All the best,
Dan Buck

Way back a few posts, Tom Affholter (January 11), remarked that Matt “Warner never put names in his manuscript to ‘protect his friends.’ Names were added by his wife after Warner’s death to publish his manuscript and make money.”

It is true that THE LAST OF THE BANDIT RIDERS, by Matt Warner, as told to Murray E. King (Caxton Printers: Caldwell, ID, 1940; republished by Bonanza Books: NY, 1950) was published after his death – he died in December 1938. However, before he died, excerpts from the book – with plenty of names listed – were serialized in the January, February, and March 1938 issues of HEARST’S INTERNATIONAL COSMOPOLITAN. In the January issue, Warner related the story of the Telluride bank holdup, identifying Butch Cassidy and Tom McCarty as his accomplices.

Mr Affholter also asserts that Warner identified Butch’s brothers Dan and Albert Parker as accomplices. That is incorrect. I suspect Mr. Affholter’s error arose from having consulted Steve Lacy’s revised edition, LAST OF THE BANDIT RIDERS . . . . REVISITED (Big Moon Traders: Salt Lake City, UT, 2000) of Warner’s book. Lacy inserted into REVISITED photographs of dubious authenticity, for which he wrote captions of an even more dubious nature. On page 45 of the Lacy edition, we find a photograph of four young men. In the caption, he identifies two of the men as Dan and Albert Parker, whom he implicates in the Telluride holdup. Other writers have linked Dan to the crime, but I don’t believe anyone else named Albert. In any event, this is Lacy writing, not Warner. Said photograph is not in Warner’s book.

Although the Lacy revision has some value as a curiosity, the original 1940 volume (or the 1950 reissue) is the Matt Warner edition.

Dan Buck

Mr. Buck:

Fully aware that your value of my opinion is about equal to that of a certain, specific area of a rat's anatomy, I will never the less proceed.

You are to be complimented on your most recent replies. I detected only information that you, I presume, believe in. With the lack of negative comments towards others, who disagree with you, even I, enjoyed your words.

You are correct, when you give us all the right to agree or disagree with your views. More shall not be asked.

Since I offer kind and polite words to you sir, I would ask one, small favor.

If you, or anyone else, should ever determine, without a shadow of a doubt, the REAL whereabouts of our Butch, please don't tell me. For as in a good fox hunt, the fun is in the chase. Oh, how in my small way, have I enjoyed the chase.

Maybe now, even more of us "non-experts" can enjoy our chase.

Thank you and good day, Mr. Buck.

Bob Jayne

Dan,

In response to your Jan 26 posting:

As you know I have already read your article on the Parker family years ago (good advertising though). In my opinion it is a one sided account, even being “anchored by 91 endnotes”. It is obvious to me that you have an ax to grind because Lula’s version of what happened to Butch does not agree with your theories that he was killed in San Vicente in 1908.

I must hand it to you that you have worked pretty hard to dig up anything you can to discredit her because of your conflicting views. Plus it continues today in interviews, newspapers, etc. that she made it all up and even the thought that she was probably crazy? The classic is Anne telling us all what Lula thought.

Most of your points are re-hashes of your Parker article. My point is that the niece that you talked to wasn’t even in Circleville in 1925, so she was not privy to Butch’s visit. I have talked to many of the family, including grandsons and granddaughters of Butch’s brothers and they do believe that Butch returned. The majority do believe he returned.

I do not believe that Mark told conflicting reports of Butch’s return, but your friend Roger McCord appears to have told you less than the truth about Mark Betenson. Roger is the only person that has said Mark didn’t believe Butch came back. Apparently you would have us believe that Mark lied to everyone else including his wife, but told some stranger that he didn’t believe Butch came back. Roger doesn’t have a stellar track record for honesty. Your “evidence” is very questionable.

I can respect your conclusion, i.e your opinion, but it is based on one sided “evidence” on Lula and her account of her brother’s return. I wonder as Jim Dullenty has if you really provide all of the “evidence” you find? Lula did go on record about her brother. Other family members did not speak of Butch in public. It was a very private matter to them. The 1942 “hearsay” newspaper story is weak. It came out 4 years after Maximilian’s death.

I question what “evidence” the letter from Glen Betenson really provides if you look at who Glen was and his relationship to the Parkers. From the outside it appears to have more meaning. But from inside the family, Glen was not close to Lula or the Parker family and was not privy to their information on Butch. He only provides his opinion from his “outside” perspective.

Bill, these postings are not just for your or my benefit. I cited our 1998 article, “Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can’t Decide,” because others read the blog who may not be as familiar with the published literature as we are.

Second, it’s neither here nor there whether said niece was present in 1925. (Neither you nor I were present either.) Her opinion goes to what other relatives, including Butch’s brothers, were saying, and also as to how Lula’s book was viewed within the family. That’s part of how we evaluate the evidence. The same with Lula’s brother-in-law, as well as descendants of Butch’s brother Dan, who said they believe he died in Bolivia.

Perhaps there’s another way to approach the matter. Consider Lula’s account of Butch’s return, his 1925 visit. Does it make any sense? Do the stories she tells in her book (BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER, pp. 177-92) ring true?

Lula has Butch saying that Sundance also escaped from South America, and that he later met him by chance in a bar in Mexico. But the Longabaugh family contends that Sundance died in Bolivia.

In Lula’s version, she has Butch saying that he heard Percy Seibert had identified “a couple of bodies as Butch and Sundance,” thus making it possible for the two outlaws to vanish and “go straight.” But in reality no one identified the bodies (except as the pair who committed the Aramayo holdup). They were buried as unknowns. Furthermore, Seibert was nowhere near San Vicente – he worked in a different part of Bolivia.

The best explanation – in my opinion – is that when Lula was writing her book in the 1970s, she incorporated garbled pieces of Seibert’s tale into her account, forgetting that Seibert’s narrative wasn’t known in 1925, when Butch’s supposed visit took place. Lula read about Seibert’s account later, and inserted it in her narrative, forgetting that the chronology was out of order.

Lula has Butch tell of sitting in a hotel hearing two men tell a fanciful account of his death in Bolivia, one that Butch says he repeats when he feels “especially devilish.” Lula comments: “We Parkers always enjoyed a good story.” I think we can agree on that.

Much of what Lula writes is what a nice boy Butch was, never killed anyone, wasn’t really a rustler, and hasn’t broken the law since he came home. It has an Adventures of Huckleberry Finn air, which is to say, it’s a picaresque tale.

Lula’s account segues into an example of Butch as Robin Hood: “We had heard through the grapevine many stories of Bob’s Robin Hood acts of generosity to people who needed a helping hand.” Lula persuades Butch to tell of the time he saved a widow’s store by giving her $1,000 to pay off her mortgage, and later retrieving his money by holding up the banker. But the parable gets better. Butch adds: “‘This was so successful that I paid off more than one mortgage in the same way.’”

If channeling Robin Hood is not enough, Lula then has him tell of the time he almost froze to death playing Santa Claus for a poor neighbor family.

What’s odd is what isn’t told. Butch spent almost eight years in South America, four ranching in Argentina, and the rest in Chile and Bolivia. Yet Lula has hardly a word in her book about where Butch was or what he was doing during that period, aside from what she gleaned from books by James Horan and others.

In short: Butch comes home; talks about how he’s a misunderstood cowboy; at Lula’s urging he tells a Robin Hood story; at Lula’s urging he tells a Santa Claus story; and he vanishes once again. What we are reading is Lula’s fanciful tale about the return of her brother, the good bandit – or as she once described him, “the sainted abbot of the world’s largest gang of outlaws.” (“Butch Cassidy . . . And When He Came Home,” REAL WEST ANNUAL, Winter 1979.)

We can understand why Lula might have spun these yarns, but we don’t have to believe them.

Dan

Dan,

Just because you have talked with a select few of the Parker family, doesn’t make you an expert in this field. I can tell you that I have talked at length with many more of the family that you have, including Dan’s grandchildren. And they do believe that Butch did not die in South America, but came back as Lula said.

Your arrogance gets the best of you. If you actually look at Lula’s book with an open mind as I know you do not have, you would see that she was retelling this account from what Butch told her and the family. If there is error in the account then we can blame Butch for telling her inaccuracies. In the account of Percy Siebert, the key is that Butch “heard” that he had identified the bodies. Apparently he heard wrong. I will admit that some of the details could have been lost to memory as 40 years had past since she had heard the details and account from her brother.

As for the Longabaugh family, I have had a member of that family tell me that he believes that Butch did not die in South America, but that he probably came back.

Lula’s book is a wonderful addition to the history of Butch Cassidy. She corrected authors on Butch real name (including your hero, Charles Kelly). Lula’s book was the first book to have a copy of Butch’s letter written from Cholila, Argentina, establishing the correct location of his ranch. Many authors continue to use the information on his early life that is found in her book, including you and your wife. At least we don’t have to hear about her menstrual cycles like we have to in your wife’s book on Butch. I keep seeing “we” as you state your point. Is that you and Anne? And there is days between your responses, do you have to wait for Anne to help write your response and give you her approval?

I can see maybe why you are so adamant to discredit Lula, if we look at you and what you have done with your years of research on Butch Cassidy. You’ve announced to the world that you have solved the mystery of what happened to Butch Cassidy…even to the point of digging up his supposed grave…assisting with DNA testing….all for what…to dig up a German Miner? Is it possible that you are a little sensitive to be made out as a fool that can’t definitively prove what a happened to Butch? Does it make you feel better to attack a little old lady who has passed away and can’t defend herself?

Since I have posted on this blog, I have received numerous emails from indivuals supporting my views and commenting on your nastiness and arrogance. I didn’t realize that there are so many people out there that dislike you and your approach.

Haven't we gotten of the point of this blog and that was, was Butch and Phillips that same person? You are the one who started off on this tangent by attacking Lula.

Have a shootout. Pat

I've been following this debate with great interest. Butch Cassidy merits proper discussion, as befits any subject matter classed as 'history'.

In the first instance I thoroughly recommend Allen Johnson's "The Historian & Historical Evidence". Contents focus on: sources of information, basis of historical doubt, technique of historical criticism, assessment of evidence, evolution of method, nature of historical proof and the use of hypotheses. If that has struck a chord, John Tosh's "The Pursuit of History" is an excellent methodology in history. These are scholarly books designed to be thought provoking and challenging in what we do and how we do it. We should be questoning our sources and weighing the evidence according to modern day rules for studying history. This kind of debate would be unheard of in 'ancient history' circles.

And here's the crux of the matter... sadly early historians of Butch, Sundance & The Wild Bunch missed huge opportunities to interview primary sources properly, cross-checking all witnesses' integrity, their personal statements, locating much crucial documentation (now lost to time) and scouring every source of information to thoroughly test and determine the merit of what they were being told and finding. We all know that wasn't done properly.

The pure study of 'history' today has changed beyond recognition from the earlier days and has left 'Western Americana' behind.

Let's also not forget that Cassidy and cohorts were America's 'most wanted' in their time. In synergy with law and order today, aiding/abetting known criminals carried a heavy penalty. It's not unreasonable to suggest that for example, Elzy Lay, Matt Warner, Bert Charter and other (fringe) members/associates of Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch who survived the pursuit and execution of many enforcement agencies (UPRR, Pinkertons, Bounty Hunters) knew a little more than they were telling, or they changed key facts, or in most cases, sensibly kept quiet for fear of retribution, or until statutes had elapsed. Clint Eastwood aptly says in one of his movies "dying ain't much of a living".

As an adventurer foremost and a very amateur historian second, I'd like to give credit where due - that Richard Patterson, Donna Ernst and both Anne Meadows and Daniel Buck, have done tremendous research in attempting to unearth any information on Cassidy, Sundance and the duo's escapades in South America. I'm eternally grateful for their commitment and dedication alongside many other historians, researchers, genealogists, etc - past and present, without whom myself and Richard Adamson would've been unable to follow the bandit duo's footsteps in America.

I hope Bill Betenson writes a book on his great, great Uncle and shares the many sources of family information. Likewise that Ms Pat Schroeder can collate her material and secure a publisher for her evidence.

Butch Cassidy's story is fascinating.

Simon Casson, co-Author of...
"Riding The Outlaw Trail in the Footsteps of Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid"

So much for courteous replies. Thanks to Daniel Buck,, as of 2/3, we are back in the gutter again.

Since he has shown us all a great honor by sharing his un-biassed, non-opinionated, totally objective critique of Mrs. betenson's book, we thought it only fair and proper, that the Buck's masterpiece of Western fiction, be accorded the same honor. Not knowing, of course, if anyone besides the Bucks has read all, or any,of this highly acclaimed work, we wanted to assure that the Bucks get a small portion of what is due them. LET IT NEVER BE SAID, THAT DANIEL BUCK IS THE ONLY ONE TO SAY NICE THINGS ABOUT NICE PEOPLE. We will not unfairly put their book in the class of Huck Finn. We feel it fits in better with HUMPTY DUMPTY.

Before we begin, Mr. Buck needs to appreciate the affect his comments of 2/3 had on some people. It has been said, "printed words paint a portrait of the author". After we viewed the picture your words created (here we will use exact words from the Buck book, so the meaning is clearly understood by all), "we barely make it back to the hotel room before I throw up". With all due respect, we feel a much more accurate and descriptive title for their book would have been, How To Increase Your Cremation Sales.

We need to explain, we just didn't have the time to cover all the wonderful details in the Buck book. There simply are too many, plus we felt it best to omit(due to the possibility of younger readers)the areas where there is repeated usage of four letter words, the use of The Lord's name in vain, things of this low and uncalled for nature. Let us proceed.

Please note, the exact words from the Buck book are in caps.

Page 44 ALTHOUGH WE ENJOY COLLECTING THE WORD-OF-MOUTH STORIES, LEARNING THE TRUTH IS OUR PRIMARY GOAL. We can't help but wonder where the constant, pitiful bad-mouthing attacks on a lady who has been deceased for 25 years, appears on your list of goals?

Page 55 We learn that the Dangerous Dan, HAS A CERTAIN TONE WHEN HE HAS HAD TOO MUCH TO DRINK. Would any of us have been able to go on with our lives, without this knowledge?

Page 117 AS THE EVIDENCE MOUNTS THAT BUTCH AND SUNDANCE RETURNED, THERE WILL HAVE TO BE VERY SOLID EVIDENCE THEY MET THEIR DEATHS IN SOUTH AMERICA BEFORE RESEARCHERS WILL RETURN TO THE OLDER VIEW. EVIDENTLY, WE HAVE OUR WORK CUT OUT FOR US. It does look that way, doesn't it?

Page 139 You reveal that BUTCH AND SUNDANCE ARE YOUR FAVORITE OUTLAWS. Since Mrs. Betenson is not allowed to say one decent word about her own brother and all you do is TRY and dig them up, what in the world is in store for the outlaws you don't like?

Page 163 WE ENCOUNTER A PRODIGIOUS QUANITY OF RAT -----. We did not reread this statement, couldn't see what it had to do with Western history.

Page 193 Mrs. Buck sees the need to address Mr. Buck as A SMART ASS. We wonder what he did to get this promotion.

Page 244 We have already used the vomit scene, it doesn't need to be repeated.

Page 252 We are exposed to the level of writing skills used by the authors, when we read, AND NOBODY KNEW ---- FROM SHINOLA. We would never think this was a self evaluation.

Page 285/286 No book on any history subject should be allowed to go to print without the astounding revalations of what is disclosed on these two pages. It is the agony of HAVING YOUR PERIOD START AND HAVING TO PUT ON A COLD BRASSIERE. Frankly, none of us could explain the impact these words had on us.

By now you may be wondering why the absolute zenith of Buck's accumulation of witty words was left out. This is the sublime joy that must have been experienced by their entire team, when they knew they had PROVEN their point. That is the unquestionable fact that they had invaded the final resting place and removed the remains of un unfortunate German. Frankly, none of us can understand why you would want to put into public record such a stupendous debacle,at all. You would tend to think that if the average person would do such a dumb thing, they sure wouldn't go around bragging about it. But we will admit, the Bucks aren't average.

Whatever causes Mr. Buck to continue and exhibit his dislike and hatred for the Parker/Betenson family, must, at least in his mind, be justifiable. The manner and style with which he does it, is most certainly not.

We are aware this is not EBay but since we aren't trying to sell, merely trying to give away this item, it should be OK. 1 book, almost as new condition. It has been read up to where the jawbone falls off the skull of a possible relative of Mr. Lougabaugh. If you will supply an address,we will mail the book to you. We will even pay the shipping charge. You see we don't know how else to get rid of it. We have twice put it in the trash and the garbage man won't take it. He said, even the daump has it's limits.

Trying to follow the lead of that clever devil, Daniel Buck,

CONTINUED:

We also saved our best for last. We also can understand why Mr. Buck would spin his yarns(could money be involved?) but as he so eloquently put it on 2/3, we don'r have to believe them.

Mr Jaynes . I would like to know what expertise you bring to any serious discussion on western history.You have written no book nor done any serious research. You are evidently, the self appointed defender of the Parker family and have no other credentials other then you think somehow you are a member of that family. You are nothing more then a groupy and lick the boots of Bill to garner any attention you can get.

I am just as aghast at the comments from you and Bill of a personal nature towards Ann Meadows. What does any of it have to do with historical facts?.Bill is a high priest with the Mormon chuch. Is this how Mormon men act in regard to women? Because Bill cannot dispute the facts layed out by Dan Buck he resorts to name calling and other slanderous statements .

Shame on all of you for making this forum a gutter fight. Why can't anyone merely act in a civilized way and present the facts of Cassidy and others .Maybe because you all don't have any?. Not one of you has done any serious research in western Wyoming in person.

I am, in a way, glad I have not written my book. Because as a woman I would be subject to the same hateful criticism .

What a sad day for historians, when we have been reduced to petty gossip on an internet site.

Pat

Pat,

I’m sorry that I ever got involved in this website that you told me about. I have remained silent except to dispute the attacks on Lula Parker Betenson. I’m sorry that you don’t agree that I “cannot dispute the” SUPPOSED “facts layed out by Dan Buck”. I think I have disputed each and every point he has made.

I’m not sure what my religion has to do with this discussion, but thanks for bringing that up.

I’m sorry you don’t see my side of it. I’m personally offended by Dan Buck’s attacks on Lula. His latest posting including attacks on her book calling out irrelevant Santa Claus stories, etc. My point was to call out their irrelevant description on her period! I agree it’s totally inappropriate in this discussion and in a book about Butch Cassidy…but they are the ones that wrote it.

Ms. Schroeders: (there is no s at the end of my name either, thank you)

You are due proper respectand I will try and display such, as I respond to your personal attack on me.

I must admit, dealing with you is like handling the tide. First it goes one direction, then quickly, it turns around and goes the opposite way. If you are a horsewoman, when you ride, do you face the horse's head or or the horse's ? Or does one who has expertise and credentials know the difference?

Allow me to illustrate why your changing positions causes me to be confused.

All of the following was said, 1/22 by a Pat Schroeder. I presume you are she.
AT LEAST BILL HAS AN OPEN MIND AND CONSIDERS AII EVIDENCE ON THE SUBJECT. HE IS A FINE RESEARCHER. JUST BECAUSE HE DOES NOT PUT IT IN A BOOK DOES NOT MEAN HE DOES NOT HAVE IT.
I HAVE TO WONDER ABOUT ANYONE WHO ATTACKS BILL AND HIS FAMILY. COULD THEY BE NOT RELATED AND JEALOUS.
EVEN IF YOU DIG UP THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF BOLIVIA YOU WILL NOT AND HAVE NOT FOUND BUTCH. YOU PLACED YOUR NAME ON THE LINE ONLY TO BE SHOT DOWN.
WHY DO YOU ARGUE ABOUT LULA? SURELY THE WOMAN WAS ENTITLED TO HER OPINION. SHE IS NOT HERE TO DEFEND HERSELF, SO YOU MAKE ARGUMENTS THAT ARE UNANSWERABLE.
DAN YOU NEED TO STOP ARGUING WITH GHOSTS. WHY NOT LOOK AT DOCUMENTS AND OTHER COMPELLING DATA THAT SHOWS WHERE THE TRUTH MAY LAY.
Okay, I think I know where you stand. But wait.
2/5 you tear into me for expressing the same views. Kind of hard to deal with.
Your questions of me, as of 2/5.
MY EXPERTISE- sorry, I didn't know it was needed in order to have an opinion.
MY CREDENTIALS- see above answer.
AM I A MEMBER OF THE PARKER FAMILY- don't think so but it might be fun.
I AM A GROUPY-don't really know what that is but it is spelled groupie.
I LICK BILL BETENSON'S BOOTS-and you talk of being led to the gutter. I see you made it. By the way, what service do you provide for Mr Buck, or does he wear boots?
You ask what any of this has to do with "historical fact?" Excellent question. As my comments were either in response to the Buck attack on Lula or her book, or high-lights from Buck's book, I could not agree more with your question.
You maybe are glad you did not write your book. Because as a woman you would be subject to the same hateful criticism. I presume you refer to the personal problems Mrs Buck discloses in their book. Ms Schroeder you missed the point. If these words had of been written by a man, they still aren't (your words)"historical facts" The comments were generated not by what she is but what she wrote. Get it.

to continue:

You end your remarks by stating"what a sad day for historians, when we have been reduced to petty gossip"

Petty--contemptibly narrow-minded or mean
Gossip--one who habitually spreads sensational or intimate facts.

Not sure who you are after here, guess it depends which end of the horse you are currently facing.

Like others, I am thru, I believe the ones that count understand the point I was making all along.

Of the numerous emails I received, please allow me to quote two lines from a lady in Oregon.

I HAD BEEN ENJOYING THIS BLOG, ONCE DAN BUCK TOOK OVER, I BACKED AWAY.

NONETHELESS, THANK YOU FOR YOUR ASTUTE ASSESSMENT OF THE "FOREMOST AUTHORITIES".

Does anyone have information about the correspondence between Phillips and William "Butch" Wagner of Silverton Colorado? William "Butch" Wagner, my Great Grandfather was a rounder, high-grader, train robber, bank robber, rustler, etc, etc. He is buried in Silverton, Colorado.

 Comments concerning; The Spokesman writer's evidence against the theory that Robert Leroy Parker, alias Butch Cassidy could have actually lived out the rest of his life as Phillips, in Spokane, Washington.

Phillips own wife denying Phillips was Cassidy.
I don't find that one bit unusual, for the time frame the Phillips lived. I was growing up in the 1940's & 50's, in those later decades families were still denying anything even remotely unpleasant about their family or ancestors. Those of us that have spent much time working on Genealogy, have found more than one skeleton in our closet. Even public documents from years past, have dubious information until several other sources can prove or disapprove the information.

The Newswriter for the Spokesman Review stated Phillips was a engineer, however as I remember Phillips was a machinist, one of the photos of Phillips shows him working in a machine shop here in Spokane. Now I've often wondered too, where he could have learned this skill? however Cassidy/Parker was in prison at one time in Wyoming and many prison's used prison labor some prisoners actually learned workable skills in those days anyway.

The supposid evidence that Phillips mother exists in Michigan rather than Utah, I would have to see all the sources to find this credible too, there could have been many many William Phillips in Michigan at any given time.

Phillips "biography" I have not read, therefore I can't comment.

I don't find it unusual that Cassidys sister would deny Phillips was Cassidy. I was born into a huge family and did not discover until I was 50 years old, my great grandfather had a second wife, and this was only by accident, which I eventually documented, but for some reason this information was not something the children of the first wife ever discussed . Those of us living in 2006 must remember the culture of our ancestors were not as forward with information as we have today in this society.

As far as the handwriting analysis goes, my own writing from the time I was in my 20's, is dramatically different than now, 40 some years later.

The prison photos of Cassidy taken in Wyoming, have always appeared to me like he had been in a fight or had had a struggle of some kind before the photo was taken. His face definitely looks swollen. I've worked with photos on a computer for many years, and could not find any evidence that Phillips was not a older version of Cassidy. I have puzzled about what facial surgery could have been applied in the early 1900's. The surgery surely couldn't have been a exact skill then, since I've seen some botched ones in this day and age. I'm not sure anyone would recognize my photos from my 20's today either. smile..

Working on Genealogy, I discovered a legend in my family that survived over 150 years, at one time I mostly took it with a grain of salt, until I came across one clue that sent me on a search to discover actual sources, that can not be denied. I have to believe surviving members of the Robert Leroy Parker's family may not have all the truth, but surely some of the correct information filtered down to them.

I've often wondered, what happened to the gun that Phillips owned and left to his adopted son?
The serial numbers on that gun would be interesting to research, it must have floated around here in Spokane for awhile anyway amongst some gun collector.

I simply loved the input of all those that are interested in this topic, but disliked the bickering a bunch. I would hope some one would blog up some more Northwest History, we have so many colorful incidents in the past for this country, of which, so many, now days do not seem to cherish

Hi Dee. DVA

You are correct partially about Phillip’s wife. Upon the death of Bill Phillips, Gertrude Phillips claimed Phillips was not Butch Cassidy. But to all other’s, she in fact claimed the opposite and I think you stated the reason well. But there was more. Close friends of Parker were the Longstroms. I had the opportunity to interview the last know living acquaintance of Phillips – Henry Sigg. Henry, at the time 94, married Blanch Longstrom’s daughter and worked with Phillips. He said that Phillips told friends he was Cassidy and provided previously unpublished details of the life of Cassidy. The Longstroms later convinced Phillips to write his memoirs which he unsuccessfully tried to have published just before his death. Phillips wrote the manuscript in a third person.

Interestingly, Henry Sigg does not believe Phillips and Cassidy were the same. He rationalizes this not because Phillips told him otherwise, but because Phillips was “too smart to be an outlaw”. When I asked why Phillips did not go public with who he claimed he was and why he wrote the manuscript in third person, Henry said Phillips felt he was still on the run. He had robbed many important people and the Pinkertons had never closed the case. He also believed that is why Gertrude Phillips denied Phillips was Cassidy. She was afraid she could be implicated and might loose her assets.

I should also mention a comment I made to Henry which made him pause. If Bill Phillips was so upstanding and smart, why did he try to arrange the kidnapping of a prominent local newspaperman? He avoided jail only because he was already dying of cancer.

As for the pistol, I have seen it. I do not believe it was ever left to Bill Jr. It was left to the Longstrom family. At his death, Phillips was for the most part estranged from his wife and son. Henry Sigg’s daughter has the pistol here in Spokane. It is the same gun reportedly seen in Cassidy photos and has Cassidy’s Johnson County brand. After leaving Telluride, Colorado in 1888, Cassidy headed north to the Kaycee, Wyoming area and started a small ranch. I believe that this is the cause of Cassidy’s “going bad”. He was a self-perceived warrior in the Johnson County Cattle Wars. Whether it was excuse or fact, I believe he rationalized all of his robberies as getting even with the Wyoming stock elite. If you have not already read about the Johnson County Cattle wars I suggest you take the time. I have spent time in Kaycee, Wyoming and every year (about now) the community puts on an excellent tour of the Hole-In-The-Wall including Cassidy’s old homestead. In that neck of the woods Cassidy has always been a hero - even to this day. It is many of the folks in the Kaycee/Buffalo area that claim Cassidy returned many times to visit after his reported death. Many believe Phillips was Cassidy and Phillips made an annual pilgrimage back to the Kaycee area from Spokane.

Many researchers would want you to believe most of the Cassidy story has already been written. But when you start examining the pieces, they just do not fit together correctly. I am not sure if Phillips was or wasn’t Cassidy. But if he wasn’t then who was Phillips, how did he end up with Cassidy’s keepsakes, and how did he know all the details he did about Cassidy? Why did he look so much like Cassidy? The whole Phillips story was rekindled when a man believed to be Sundance Kid’s son died in a fire in Missoula, MT (I believe) in the late 1950s. In his possession was a document that claimed Phillips was Cassidy. Those doubting Phillips claim he was a good imposter. Why? There was no money? He never went public about himself.

But most is circumstantial. I believe that no one’s story, be it Buck/Meadows, Kelley, or Larry Pointer’s, has enough credibility to withstand a serious litmus test. That is the real reason there is so much bickering in sites like this and I am sorry. But there is much research remaining and I expect some, but not all answers will surface in the near future

Bill Bentenson
Lula was the only one I know of who broke the code of silence. Was it because she wanted to set the record straight? I know that family members were sworn to secrecy. I thought to protect the identities of families. I began to wonder why seventy years after the event and all the participants were dead, they still refused to talk about it. Is there more than the identities they were protecting? I can tell you this Boyd Charter had no doubt Butch returned
Jack

Just came across an interesting article in the Winter edition of the 1976 WESTERNER. It covers a lot of information about Elza Lay, who according to this story, spent a great deal of time, in the 1890's with Butch. The article was most interesting in the last paragraph, where it talks of Elza and Butch returning to Baggs and Rock Springs, Wyoming. Quoting from the last sentence, "It was fitting that the two top men of the Wild Bunch should survive long enough to enjoy each other's company.

It certainly would seem that someone who knew Cassidy as well as Lay did in the 90's, would not be fooled by an imposter such as Mr. Phillips or anyone else.

This trip took place, according to the WESTERNER article,in 1929.

Would enjoy hearing from anyone who has spoken with Mr. Wallace Ott, I believes he is, or was, from Tropic, Utah. He always had a kind word for Butch.

Bob Jayne

Regarding The Bandit Invincible

The Marriot Library (Utah) Digital Collections online has a transcript of the book.

You can find it here http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/pbb&CISOPTR=203&REC=13

Pat,
I have read all of the replys here on this blog, and I would like to hear your facts. You say you are poor and ill but you only want credit for your work.

So, lay out the truth. This is the second most active Cassidy blog, with five of the top seven players involved. Your input, if it is as you say, could prove to be a welcome addition. What is the "truth" as your research shows?

I present evidence on my "SUNDANCE KID HENRY LONG" web page that Harry Longabaugh was not killed in Bolivia but returned to the USA and died in 1936. Please visit my web page at www.sundancekidhenrylong.com and evaluate my compiled information and comment either here or to me in an email.
I would like to see Pat create a web page and present her information for all to see.
You can't make any money at this but it sure is fun.

Having just read the efforts of Mr. Nickle, may I suggest to you that have not seen his work, to do so. It would appear to contain about as many, proven facts as anyone else's efforts.

A couple of interesting areas, the pictures of Mr. Longabaugh's sisters, that appear in the Ernst book and the picture that Mr. Long obtained later in his life. Are the ladies the same? Mr. Long must have thought so.

The pictures that are believed to be of The Sundance Kid. At least in the Ft. Worth and the NYC pictures, the thumb on the right hand does not show in either photo. I am sure there is an explanation for this, as the gentleman that Mr. Nickle is writing about, had lost the thumb on his right hand in an accident.

What is really the most enjoyable result of this work---it is down to earth, nothing fancy, involves the writer's family, presents information that certainly seems as believable as any other historical story and most of all, he has not seen the need to discredit anyone else. He simply states his information.

Most will appreciate his effort.

Bob Jayne

As you can tell by the name I am a Parker. Elnor Parker was my Grandmother and Max Sinclair Parker my Grandfather. My Grandmother said that Butch visited her shortly after my Father was born Max Manning Parker. He was born September 17, 1930 in Utah. As I read all of the messages and understanding that I have never had any contact with the Betenson family, nor can I say that I have never personally met any of them, I find it interesting that my Grandmother also stated that Butch came home and gave a date after his supposed death. I am not a expert, auther, or Historian. I stumbled onto this sight and read the messages and debates. I have to say that I believe my Grandmother and Lula when they say Butch came back. I was young when I found out about my heritage and was told from my mother that it was a family secret.

Laura Parker, thanks for our posting.

Some years ago – 1998 to be exact – Anne Meadows and I compiled the various stories about Butch Cassidy’s fate in “Did Butch Cassidy Return? The Family Can’t Decide.” You can find it at < http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/ > under the ARTICLES section.

Inside the article, under “Dissension in the Ranks,” is a discussion of Ellnor Parker’s story of Butch’s return in 1930. In one telling, she said that Butch was William T. Phillips; in another she mentioned no name.

In a second article, “Butch & Sundance: Still Dead?,” published in the April-June 2006 NOLA QUARTERLY (and also online in an earlier versoin under the ARTICLES section), we recounted the dozens of different tales of Butch’s death on three continents over a span of almost 90 years. We added an additional story told to us recently by another descendant of Daniel Parker (Max Sinclair Parker’s father), who said that her family believes Butch died in South America.

Dan Buck

Laura Parker, correction -- I meant to type: thanks for your posting.

Dan Buck

Dan,
I believe my grandmother when she said that Butch returned. I have not seen any evidence from any other sources that leads me to believe that my grandmother was not accurate in her account. In my personal life I have found that some events can be fuzzy but the events that are so clear are the births of my children. I have vivid memories of My grandfather being there and holding his great grandson for the first time. I remember what he said and the expression on his face. I believe that my grandmother new who visited her and her new born son.

Laura Parker Jones

Laura,

I would like to contact you outside of this blog. Several of us are wanting to organize a Parker family renunion.

Bill,
A Parker family reunion... Sounds like a Wild Bunch to me. I don't know how I can get information to you without publishing my private numbers or e-mail on this blog. Any ideas would be great.
Thanks,
Laura

Before comments are made about Mr. Buck's response to Laura Parker Jones, a chance to congratulate Mr. Buck has to be used. Please allow a slight departure from Western history, to another area of history.

It would appear, in Mr. Buck's haste to keep the record straight,his true beliefs of BM have surfaced and by his own hand. He says in addressing Mrs. Jones, "THANK YOU FOR OUR POSTING". Never have this many words said so much, Up to now, that could not be stated. From the following you will discover the old record for meaningful brevity.

A gentleman was asked by Oxford University to speak at their commencement exercises. He accepted.
His entire address, word for word, follows. "Never give up Never give up". This short & eloquent address will never be forgotten by those present. A total of 6 words. The gentleman was Sir Winston Churchill.

continued

Continued:

My congratulations Mr.Buck.

In just 5 words, you have been able to show what you really feel. So much adnitted in so few words. Please don't try to change them. When you have finally written something with so much real meaning, leave well enough alone.

Regarding Mrs. Jones. One would think a real historian, even you, would welcome and encourage anyone to participate. Especially information offered by a family member of one you write so many opinions.

How did Mr. buck respond?

continued

To continue:

After his thank our, (he did offer a retraction), he informs Mrs. Jones. that she doesn't know what she is talking about. (This of course will encourage other family members to come forward and share what information has been handed down to them, generation by generation). Information, which I am sure, will be greatly enjoyed by most of us.

Not to be. Mrs. Jones is then directed to some of BM locations, so she can read hearsay upon hearsay, and on and on. they will disclose supposed comments by other Parker/Betenson relatives. It should be noted, these comments will, in no way, disagree or cast the slightest doubt on BM's unproven theories.

Mr. Buck, if you really want to impress Mrs. Jones, direct her to your renowned site, which contains so much highly,informative statements. (although I understand you repeatable deny ever saying any of these things) You may, or may not have said them, but it would appear you wrote them. I refer, of course to "Who are those guys?" Copyright 2001 by Daniel Buck & Anne Meadows. All rights reserved.
It discloses your conclusions regarding the condition and content of the mind of a Mrs. Lula Parker Betenson.

continued

To continue:

As I was guided by an old gentleman from Wyoming, skip down to the next to last question and it's answer. I would not want to admit to writing this kind of garbage either. I do hope this group od opinions is still available, in it's original offering.

In closing, I wish to thank Mrs. Jones for her very enjoyable information. I also offer her my apology. For some time I thought of suggesting to Mr. Jim Kershner, that a warning be boldly shown on his blog. Although now, it appears Mr. Buck has assumed leadership. So be it, I will direct the suggestion to him. He is somewhat involved.

continued

to continue:

In the future, anyone (especially family members of those we enjoy reading about) MUST submit to BM, a complete draft of their information. If it passes,BM may or may not use it in future offerings. You are now OK'd to post it on this blog. If you follow these instructions, you have a chance, somewhere between slim and none, of escaping the ridicule of BM.
If I didn't know better, I almost would think BM actually believes what they have repeated over and over, etc.

A final thought. Would anyone like to limit participation on this blog, to those that are here, to simply learn, share and enjoy. Those that are here for the sole purpose of making a buck (opps,sorry)should use other means.

Dear Laura–

I can understand that you believe the story passed down within your family. For those of us on the outside, though, trying to make sense of all the different stories, it’s a bit of a challenge.

If we just limit ourselves to various Parker family members the evidence is conflicting, to say the least. Sometime after the 1942, Lula’s husband filed a family record form with the Church of the Latter Day Saints stating that Butch had died in 1909, a date roughly consistent with when he is thought to have died in Bolivia. Sometime after 1972, a second form was filed, saying Butch had died in 1937. Which form is correct?

Then we have the contradictory stories. For example, Butch’s father Maximillian Parker is said to have lamented that Butch never came home after going to South America. Yet Lula said he did return, in 1925, and that Maximillian was present. Lula’s son Mark told family members the story was true but told a researcher that it wasn’t. One of Butch’s nieces said that her uncles – Butch’s brothers – searched for him for years but never determined what became of him. She quoted one of Butch’s sisters as saying that Lula’s book was “a pack of lies.” Lula’s brother-in-law wrote a friend that he believed Butch died in South America. Lula’s great-grandson Bill Betenson, though, believes Lula’s story of Butch’s return is true.

Your grandmother told one researcher that she met Butch in 1930, and that his name was Bill Phillips. But Lula said he only visited once, in 1925. But another descendant on your side told us that her family believes Butch died in South America. Lula also said her brother died in Spokane in 1937 and sometimes used the alias Phillips, but definitely wasn’t William T. Phillips. Lula’s co-author Dora Flack said she thought Lula told the truth in her book, but that from everything Lula told her she believed that Butch was William T. Phillips.

Yet, if there’s one thing we do know, William T. Phillips was a hoaxer; he wasn’t Butch.

Confusing. You bet.

Dan

Dan
Your opion is not the final word. Who made you Boss?

Jerry--

This is a blog. Opinions are welcomed -- yours, mine, anyone's. That's how blogs work.

Why don't you share with us your views about, say, what happened to Butch Cassidy and the various Parker family stories about his fate.

All the best,

Dan

The Winston Churchill quote posted above is incorrect. What he actually said in his October 29, 1941, speech to Harrow School: "never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense."

The complete text of his speech can be found on the Churchill Centre's website: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=423

Also of interest is an essay, "A Man So Various: The Misappropriated Winston Churchill," by Geoffrey Wheatcroft, in the May 2006 HARPER'S.

The money graf: "Churchill's career was unusually lengthy and colorful, so full of twists and turns and reverses, changes of party and journeys from one side of the political spectrum to the other, that he can be invoked by almost anyone."

Dan

Thank you Mr. Buck for the corrections regarding the Churchill speech. I have sent them to Honor Books, Tulsa and to Mr. WB Freeman, who prepared the manuscript. I know they well be delighted to learn that they don't know what they are talking about either. Just shows you can't believe the written word, unless it is written by you know who.

What a wonderful gesture, the kind explanation to Mrs. Jones. It has to make her day to learn so much of her family history from Mr. Buck. Especially the massive amount that he knows of Lula Parker Betenson. He never met Mrs. Betenson but on the other hand, I never met Churchill, I just thought I knew everything about him. Shows how wrong you can be.

I am sure, since you have this vast knowledge of what the P/B fanily knows and have said, that you would be glad to share with us, the wxact number of these people YOU have spoken to directly, face to face. You would never, I'm sure, write as "fact", things you have read or worse been told by someone, who heard from someone, on and on. It is a relief to know you would never do that.

Don't forget to direct everyone to your "Who are those Guys?" To read the compliments you extend to Lula.

All my best too,

Bob

Dan
You believe that Butch and Sundance were killed in Bolivia and you ridicule any view that they came back. Just because there are variations in the stories does not mean Lulu was wrong, I believe she was right
You are the foremost authority on Butch and Sundance, I read that on one of your web-pages, evaluate the information on my web-page and show us where Henry Long could not be Harry Longabaugh, and I mean proof not opion. If one came back the other one came back.

Jerry–

I am entirely unpersuaded by the information on your website that there is, as you put it, “the possibility that Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh.” By the way, “possibility” is an absurdly low bar. It’s well nigh impossible to disprove a slender“possibility.” But let’s give it a try.

First, the man identified as Henry Long in the photograph on your site looks nothing like Harry Longabaugh.

Second, in all of our research on the subject of Wild Bunch outlaws, I’ve never seen evidence that Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh. Likewise that Harry Longabaugh was ever married and/or had children. Certainly that story might have at one time wafted back to the Longabaugh family in Pennsylvania.

Third, anomalies and coincidences that you cite are vague and insubstantial. He was not counted in the 1900 census. So what? A more probable explanation is that he was off cowboying somewhere, not that he was a famous outlaw.

You mention that the names “William” and “Henry” appear in the family trees of the Longs and the Longabaughs. What can this prove? Both were common names in that period.

As for the Henry-Enrique link, Harry Longabaugh used the name “Enrique”in Argentina because his alias there was Harry A. Place and Enrique is Spanish for Harry. Yes, Enrique also means Henry, but his birth name as well as his alias name was Harry. He used several other aliases in Bolivia and Chile, including Frank Boyd, H. A. Brown, and Frank Jones, but never to my knowledge Henry.

Fourth, you say that Henry Long’s birthplace was listed in a 1910 census as Idaho and on his death certificate as Big Horn Basin, Wyoming. Harry Longabaugh, however, was born in Pennsylvania.

Sorry, in my view, not even a possibility.

Dan

Mrs. Laura Parker Jones:

If you like and to preserve your and Bill Betenson's privacy, you can email me with your information and I will gladly forward it to Bill. This is also all right with Mr. Betenson.

My email is robbersjayne@aol.com

And thank you again for sharing some of your family's information.

Bob Jayne

Dan,
I am aware of all the confusing stories that different members of my family have told, but, we must not forget about the secret pac that was made, never to speak of Butch's return. I can say that if I was told never to speak of something by my father I would take that to the grave. Now I can not speak for my siblings. If one of them broke thier silence for what ever reason that would not persuade me to break. Knowing that there are many siblings and extended family that Lula said Butch had seen on his visit in 1925. All swore never to speak of his return, but a few did speak and the others stood fast to the silence and responded in denial out of respect for the Maximillion and to try to preserve the family name. I can see this happening for no other resonthen the Parker family was not proud of what Butch had done nor did they want anyone to associate him with the rest of the family. Lets face it would you put him down as a reference on a job application for a recently posted bank job? Doubt it. I feel the Parkers who deny his return did this because they felt the success of their family depended on it and believed nothing good could come from this secret being exposed. Unfortunatly they protected that secret and took it to their graves.

A slender possibility? The scenario in your book is a slender possibility.

continued

Welcome to the Buck, Cassidy, Phillips and Churchill program.

Before I gave in to Mr. Buck’s astounding knowledge, apparently on any subject known to mankind, I thought I might double check his latest corrections. You may recall I was going to point out to the publishers of the book, I had taken the Churchill remarks from, that they did not know what they were talking about, per information received from our Self Appointed Foremost Authority. Kinda glad now I didn’t, as apparently there are some others that are almost as dumb as I.

Please understand this diversion is for one purpose only. Not to prove the number of words in, or location of a speech, but to show the level of talent and value of what you read and hear from our Mr. Buck. How quickly he will grab the first bit of available information, that might indicate, he knew of what he spoke. How factual this information is, has no bearing on whether he will quote and use it.

I refer, to his pointing out the comments I had of the Churchill speech, were not correct. He gave his version of the content and that it was delivered at Harrow’s, not Oxford. I believe his version was given by a student from Harrow’s, where it is certainly possible that Churchill spoke. It does seem unlikely that he only gave one speech. Since this version was in direct contradiction to what I had said, Mr. Buck immediately presented it as factual. As I believe has happened many, many times over the years, in his effort to show BM is right and all others wrong, he failed to prove his “factual” information, before he so eagerly used it.. Not that he ever could. If he would have only looked a little farther.

So no one is asked to believe what an amateur, most certainly not an authority, believes, may I present what a few others think. (if this isn’t enough I can supply more, although, even in the court of BM, I think the prosecution can rest).

May 16. 05 Commencement address by Mr. Brad Mayne. President/CEO American Airlines Center. Sir Winston Churchill said “never, never, never give up. His total speech. Then he sat down.

The 4th session of the 448th convocation, at which degrees in the Graduate School of Business were awarded. The entire speech given by Churchill, at Oxford University, “never, never, never give up”, was used by Dr. Dennis J Keller. Dr. Keller is Chairman & CEO of DeVry Inc. He is also Chairman, The Council of the Graduate School of Business, the University of Chicago.

Perhaps the most famous graduation speech, was given by Winston Churchill, at Oxford University, in the twilight of his life. When introduced, Churchill walked to the podium, took off his hat, looked over the assembled students and simply said, “NEVER GIVE UP.” He then proceeded to pick up his hat, and sat down. These words are from the commencement address, given May 10, 2003 at the University of El Paso. This speech was given by The Honorable Antonio O. Garza Jr. The Honorable Mr. Garza, at that time was the United States Ambassador to Mexico.

I, probably like you, am getting tired. But since I firmly believe in standing up for what is right, I will present one more example. I especially enjoyed this one, as it is certainly the most descriptive.

Dr. Milton Haynes, President, New York County Medical Society. May 21, 2001, at the annual meeting. His address was titled, “NEVER GIVE UP”.

When Sir Winston Churchill arrived at Oxford University to deliver the commencement address, he arrived with his usual props—a cigar, his cane and a top hat. As he approached the podium, the crowd rose in appreciative applause. With great dignity, Churchill settled the crowd as he stood confidently before the vast university audience and his admirers. He then removed the cigar from his teeth and carefully placed his top hat on the lectern. Looking directly at the eager audience, with authority ringing in his voice, he shouted, NEVER GIVE UP. Several hushed seconds passed. He rose to his toes and shouted again, NEVER GIVE UP! His words thundered across the audience and a profound silence enveloped the crowd. He then reached for his hat and cigar, steadied himself with his cane, returned to his seat and sat down. Historians have recorded this six-word commencement speech as the shortest and most eloquent address ever given at Oxford University. Dr. Haynes concluded his remarks with, “NEVER GIVE UP NEVER GIVE UP”.

It should be noted, the above speeches were all much longer, I simply borrowed the comments used by the speakers, regarding the famous Churchill speech.

For those of you that have stayed the course, I apologize for taking so much of your time. To me, standing up for what is right, is important. Very important. And you, your tactics and supposed factual information Mr. Buck, does not even approach being right. Pardon my frankness but I am sick and tired of your self appointed level of authority. The only

To continue:

If you wish to correct the above gentleman, I will be more than glad to help you contact them.

Without doubt, Mr. Buck, you are the most perfectly balanced person I have ever heard of. Your abundance of arrogance, is perfectly balanced by your total lack of ethics.

I decided against sending any corrective comments to my book's publisher.

Bob Jayne

Laura–

Thanks for your reply.

The conspiracy of silence story though – even assuming it is true – doesn’t clear up the confusion, it compounds it. More importantly, once Lula went public, there was no silence.

I went into our clipping file to see exactly when Lula might have first gone public with her dramatic story that Butch had not died in Bolivia. The earliest clipping I found was from 1969 (“Butch Cassidy ‘Nice’ Bandit,” THE LIMA NEWS, October 19, 1969). Interviewed in New York while attending the premiere of the movie BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID, Lula said that the movie was wrong about Butch’s death, in that he had not died in Bolivia but had returned to the United States. “‘I saw him after he got back,’” she was quoted as saying.

By the way – and I thank you for prompting me to read these old clippings or I would not have otherwise stumbled upon these other anomalies – during that same 1969 interview Lula said that Sundance had been killed in Bolivia, and that “it grieved Butch to leave him there.” An April 1970 interview (“Sister Gives Real Story of the Notorious Butch,” THE SPOKESMAN-REVIEW, April 5, 1970), however, had it differently: “Mrs. Betenson says she’s not sure what happened to Longabaugh, but does know that Etta later returned to Denver.”

A few months later, in an October interview (“‘Butch Didn’t Die in S. America,’” SALT LAKE TRIBUNE, October 10, 1970), Sundance was suddenly alive and the trio was happily reunited: Butch escaped from Bolivia and later “rendezvoused in Mexico with Sundance and Etta Place.”

Another discrepancy: in a 1973 article (“Butch Cassidy Lived Here: Who Will Buy?” DESERET NEWS, August 10, 1973), about the proposed sale of the Parker house in Circleville, Lula’s daughter-in-law was quoted as follows: “‘Mother, now in her 80s, says she can walk to Butch’s grave,’ Mrs [Mark] Betenson told this reporter. ‘If mother can walk to that grave it can’t be very far away.’” In her book, as you recall, Lula claimed that Butch died in the Northwest, and that the family found out about it later in a letter from a friend of Butch’s.

The long and short of it is that even assuming that there was a code of silence, Lula’s disclosure that Butch had escaped from Bolivia and returned to the United States occurred almost 40 years ago, while many of the stories from other family members of Butch of not having returned – or disputing other aspects of her account – came after her story was published.

Lula said Butch was not William T. Phillips. Her co-author more recently said she thought he was. One of Butch’s nieces told me that her uncles (Butch’s brothers) looked for him for years and never found out what happened to him. She also told me that one of her aunts had described Lula’s book as “a pack of lies.” Lula’s brother-in-law said in a letter that he thought Butch died in South America. Lula’s son Mark told family members Butch returned in 1925, yet told a visiting researcher that he did not. And so on.

In other words, these family members were not breaking any Parker omertà, but contradicting Lula’s already published story.

Dan

Dan Buck
Manufacturing evidence with your Churchill quotes Mr. Buck. I wonder how much evidence you have manufactured about Butch and Sundance in the past?

Jerry–

This is from the Churchill Centre website:

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=435
=======================
FAQs - Quotes

Q. I am looking for the brief speech that Churchill made to the graduating class of, I believe, Oxford or Cambridge. Memory serves that the speech was simply "Never give up, Never give up, never give up." Is this correct?

A. This is our most frequent quote request. The speech was made 29 October 1941 to the boys at Harrow School. " Never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' The full speech is contained in "The Unrelenting Struggle" (London:Cassell and Boston:Little Brown 1942, and is found on pages 274-76 of the English edition). It may also be found in "The Complete Speeches of Winston S. Churchill," edited by Robert Rhodes James (NY:Bowker and London:Chelsea House 1974).

Of course, I never interviewed Winston Churchill face-to-face, so there’s always “a possibility” that he said “never give up” at some time during his long life. (I know I’ve said it. Followed by a nap.) Nonetheless, the Churchill Centre seems to think that the “never give up” phraseology is a myth. The centre says that it’s “our most frequent quote request,” probably meaning that more people believe in the mythical version than the actual one. Once legends get going, it’s no stopping them.

(By the way, an excellent book on the subject of mythical quotes is “NICE GUYS FINISH SEVENTH”: FALSE PHRASES, SPURIOUS SAYINGS, AND FAMILIAR QUOTATIONS (1992), by Ralph Keyes. An excerpt: “Since Winston Churchill said so many quotable things in his long lifetime, it’s understandable that he would be involved in repeated episodes of misquotation. Anyone that quotable will be routinely misquoted.” By the way – again, I’m in a rut – Churchill borrowed “I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat” from John Donne and Byron and Lord Alfred Douglas and maybe Henry James. Churchill claimed he’d never read Henry James. None of them got royalties.)

Another poster on this forum, who appears overdue for his rabies shots, cited as his basis for Churchill having used the “never give up” language speeches delivered by, among others, the CEO of American Airlines and the President of the New York Medical Society. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do not believe that Winston Churchill ever held either post.

Dan

Emendation: below the graf ending in "1974)." there should be a double line, i.e., ========================

The text before the first ======= and below the second ======== is mine.
Dan

Dan
A poster with rabies, you are a barrel of laughs. But your attacks on others does make for a lively discusion. I am not an expert on Churchill quotes so am going to defer to the other poster. I think he is an expert.

Dan Buck
I reread the other posters entry to see where he claimed that Churchill was a CEO like you said it did. You read something into that entry that was not there and then used what you thought was there in your own composition. I'm sorry Mr. Buck but I'm beginning to have doubts about your research ability.

Irony, Jerry, irony. Sigh. OK, I will try to draw a picture; difficult though for lack of artistic ability on my part. No, Churchill was not CEO of American Airlines, but your doppelgänger in these environs had argued that because the CEO of American Airlines, not to mention several other orators too lazy to double-check quotes, had attributed “never give up” to Winston Churchill, that somehow meant voilà (hmm, I’ve just used German and French in the same sentence. What could that mean?), Churchill had uttered those words. Do I need to keep explaining the joke, or are we OK with it? That reminds me, do you ever watch Eddie Izzard? Whenever the audience doesn’t get a joke, he takes out a notebook and begins scribbling in it, as if he is reporting the audience. To whom is not clear. It always gets a laugh, even if the joke didn’t. Eddie Izzard. I recommend Eddie Izzard.

By the way, “never give up,” pithy and exhortative though it may be, collides with other maxims, such as “the first rule of holes . . . if you are in one, stop digging.” Who said that? Sgt. Bilko? No, Sgt. Bilko didn’t say it, but it sounds like something he might have.

And: “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” That and many variations thereof has been attributed to, among others, Benjamin Franklin and Albert Einstein.

Dan

P.S. Per the Churchill Centre, the attribution of the “never give up” aphorism to Churchill as well as the anecdote of him getting up, uttering it twice, and sitting down are “entirely wrong.” But you’re in good company in siding with the folkloric version. The governor of Maine apparently repeated it at the launching of the USS Winston S. Churchill. Who can argue with a governor?

Dan Buck
I understood the Irony. I posted that entry just to see if I could "Rattle Your Chain" that's an idiom, and it worked very well. I'm going to pat myself on the back.

When this argument is over maybe we can get back to Butch and Sundance, but I got a felling it's not over yet. I got a few questions about the research you use in your book. Unlike one poster on this Blog, who threw his copy in the garbage or tried to I kept mine. So please stick around

Jerry,

before you go haring off, some posts ago I summarized various Parker stories about Butch’s fate. Laura Parker replied with a well-written, plausible theory, that the family had agreed to remain silent about him. I didn’t think it covered all bases, and explained my reasons, but at least Laura engaged the question. Your comment, however, was a juvenile, “Who made you Boss?”

Later you asked me to disprove your Henry Long = Harry Longabaugh hypothesis. I laid out several reasons why I was unpersuaded. Your response? The rhetorical equivalent of “so’s your old lady.” Is that really the best you can do?.

By the way, a sigh is not a rattle. A sigh is just a sigh.

Dan

Dan
That was a good post,you are not arrogant,insulting or offensive. I don't know how to handle it. It catches me off guard. I think I will wait a day or two before I engage just see if the change is real.

12

Sorry for the delay in my response but with what Mr Buck pointed out, I felt I needed to be at the vets, getting a rabies shot.

I had prepared a considerable amount of information and questions for Mr Buck. After trying to digest his comments of 9/19 2:20 pm and becoming quite tired from reaching for my dictionary, to even begin to understand what he was talking about, I have chosen to adjust my reply. Also after his second attempt at explaining and changing his Churchill facts and comments, I believe it is time to quit beating a dead horse. Besides, most of his words weren’t in the dictionary anyway.

He is clever though, when he uses wording that he wants us to believe is funny, in an attempt to cover the mistakes he made. He was at least big enough to redo his homework, then taking advantage of his second opportunity, he changed what he had said. It is a shame that you can’t do that with the tale of your fiasco in S/A.

I won’t even mention how your rabies reference, reminded me of my neighbor digging up the German shepherd and trying to prove it was Butch Cassidy. Now that story IS funny.

As Mr Buck has taken the personal insults beyond what is proper, I will only add a few comments and a question or two of him. I believe it would not be proper to ask, if he had any idea what it was I saw while I was at the vets. There, waiting to get a trim was a furry faced, long haired, little varmint, I have never seen anything like it. Shows what you can run into, if you have rabies.

As you know, Mr Buck, I have expressed more than one issue with you. Saving time, I will address just the main one. Realizing for some time you had nothing to add to your contention of where Butch is, you have turned to trying to discredit all those expressing information, that you don’t agree with. Especially Lula Parker Betenson. There are many, many examples of this, I will refer to only the one I feel has the least class of all. Your comments about her mind. Recall “Who are those guys?” I will never understand what you think you will accomplish, by this sad effort. If you ever gain anything from this, how will it help your theory? Don’t even you, believe that proper research should stand on its own? I don’t see where she should be on trial, anymore than you. Aren’t both sides entitled to their opinions. Most certainly.

One final thing, a favor of you, Mr Buck. Please continue with your established practice of replying to my humble words by going thru someone else. I do appreciate that, as I can only describe the value I place on what you have to say by quoting Clark Gable. I believe he made this comment during a recent speech at Oxford University. “FRANKLY MY DEAR (mr buck) I DON’T GIVE A DA–.”

As you just mentioned holes, may I suggest by your continuing to dig, sooner or later you are going to dig a bigger hole than you have dirt to fill.

Bob Jayne

Hey, gang. Personal attacks are not allowed. Keep it civil, please.

Great idea.

bj

Dan Buck
I use regular English, dictionary work will not be required,I address one subject at a time, My entries are shory and to the point, and English is the only language I know, except for a few cuss words in Spanish.

I asked you to review my Sundance Kid web-page and you did, you said

"First the man identified as Henry Long in the photograph on your site looks nothing like Harry Longabaugh"

The people at the OUTLAW HISTORY CENTER in Vernal Utah published my web-page in thier fall 2004 newsletter. they copared the photographs and this is what they said.

" History Center computer specialist note: After reading and entering into the computer this story, I was curious to see if the faces matched. I then went into Adobe Photo-shop and superimposed Henry Long's photo onto Sundance's to see if the facial features matched I was suprised to see they matched perfectly"

Jerry, the key to comparing faces is to look for differences, not similarities. If you look for similarities you’ll bamboozle yourself. (For those of you viewing at home, the comparison is between the photograph of Henry Long on Jerry's homepage, and the detail of Sundance from the Fort Worth portait.)

Look at the eyes, they’re entirely different. Long has doe-eyes. Look at the jaw lines, they’re completely different. Sundance has a narrower longer jaw; Long has a rounder jaw. Look at the ears. The bottom of Sundance’s ears are above the bottom of his nose. The bottom of Long’s ears are below his nose.

Skip Photoshop, use your eyes.

All the best,
Dan

P.S. Jerry, are there other photos of Long? The more to compare with, the better the result.

Dan
I do have another photograph I think it was taken when he was in his fifties. I can see now that I must get it on the web-site.

Your next point is: If they are the same man, why didn't the Pennsylvania family know of his marriage. I will have to address that one tomorrow. I have a full time real job.

Jerry, no hurry. We have time. By the way, was the detaild from the photo on your website flipped? I notice on the full view he's facing to his right and on the detail he's facing his left.

It is difficult to believe Harry Longabaugh could have gotten married and fathered a couple kids right there in Utah without his outlaw colleagues, friends, or family in Pennsylvania knowing about it.

Regardless, Harry Longabaugh's family in Pennsylvania really is the problem. That's where he was from. That's where his parents lived, that's where he was born, that's where his brothers and sisters were born and raised, and when he went West in the 1880s, he lived with the Longenbaughs, Longabaugh relatives in Colorado.

Harry Longabaugh is in the 1870 and 1880 census as living with his parents in Pennsylvania. His sister Samantha mentions Harry in her business journal. His sister Emma mentions Harry in her will. The family received -- and still has -- two ca. 1904 photographs of Sundance at the ranch in Argentine.

He was Harry Longabaugh, not Henry Long.

That's the central problem.

Dan

Dan
I don't want to argue with so I pass.

Jerry, "argument," from the Latin "arguere," to make clear.

A couple entries down in my dictionary, below "argus pheasant," is another word, "argy-bargy," a Britishism for "a lively dispute or discussion." In the old days, in the pub; nowadays, on the Internet.

Dan

When derogatory comments are made of another individual , especially a deceased person, then are denied and not explained, there remains no more to be said. One lady sent me a lovely explanation, words I will always remember. To get one to admit something they are probably ashamed of saying or cannot prove, is like trying to sit on a cloud.

Possibly the following quote applies.

AUTHORITY WITHOUT WISDOM IS LIKE A HEAVY AX WITHOUT AN EDGE, FITTER TO BRUISE THAN POLISH.

Dan
With your considerable knowledge maybe you can help me. Why was Butch Cassidy convicted and served his time under the name George Cassidy and in reality he was a parker. I'm very confused please help me.

Jerry, I don't want to give the plot away. You'll have to get a hold of Richard Patterson's BUTCH CASSIDY: A BIOGRAPHY, and while you're at it, why not read Donna Ernst's SUNDANCE MY UNCLE.

All the best,
Dan

Dan
I am very disapointed I thought you had all the answers. Please don't go far I will have another question later

Dan
You certainly know allot about Harry Longabaugh so I'm sure you can aswer this question: Where was Harry Longabaugh between 1893 and 1897?

Jerry, see chapters nine and ten, SUNDANCE MY UNCLE, Donna Ernst, as well as "The Butte County Bank Holdup," Donna Ernst, OLD WEST, Fall 1997.

All the best,
Dan

Dan
That answer won't work. You have publicly attacked Lulu and others on this Blog So I won't let you seep this out of view. I have done my homework and so have you, and you kmow where this leads, it will help expose you for what you are. Donna Ernst is your friend, you may consult with her, But either answer the question or hide ubder the desk.

Jerry, and this all leads where? Expose away.

Dan

Dan
It appears you caught amnesia. Didn't you and Donna Ernst write something about?

Sorry Let me try again
It appears you caught amnesia. Didn't you and Donna Ernst Write somthing Canada?

My great grandfather,and father were born in Dixon wyoming.My father's uncle took care of the houses when the gang showed up in Dixon.. the famous Etta Place was a member of our family,a teacher,piano player
who traveled over the world..

(1) Jerry, yes, my article on Sundance's life in Canada was published in the WOLA JOURNAL, vol. III, no. 3, Winter 1993. A reference to it is on our website, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homespages/danne/

And your point is, what?

(2) Kid Dutrel, tell us more.

All the best,

Dan

Dan,
Why in the world would Kid Dutrel tell you what he knows about Etta, and subject himself to the tongue lashing and ridicule that you have given to anyone who has a different theory about Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh.
If the Kid has found Etta, That could seriously jeopardize your reputation as the undisputed expert on all maters related to Butch Cassidy.
However it could prove you to be correct and save you the embarrassment of having to apologize.
Donna Ernst has spent time in the Dixon area, researching The Sundance Kid and Etta (I know Ethel Eva etc.)Place. Tell me when were in Dixon the last time researching Etta?
Kid, unless you have a tuff hide, keep what you know to yourself or the blog will get you.
Just ask all those above. I'm sure any one of them would like to have the information you have.

Jack,

Jack while you are asking Mr. Buck questions, maybe he will tell you what the motive behind and the benefit he received, for making the comment about Mrs. Betenson’s mind.

His being in Dixon, is rather doubtful. Although look at all he knows about Mrs. Betenson. He hasn’t been in Circleville either.

Kid Dutrel, as I say, please tell us more.

All the best.

Dan

Dan
I did indeed visit your web-page, but it must have a malfunction, all you could see was questions and no answers.

Bob,
The benefit is to discredit Mrs. Bentenson by politly implying that she has a confused memory, due to age and length of time after the event. Thus creating doubt as to her recollections about her brother Butch.
I'm sure Mrs. Bentenson would say he just called me a liar. I suspect Mr. Buck is fast approaching the age, Mrs. Bentenson was when she first told of the return of brother Butch. You know the old saying, what goes around, comes around, perhaps Mr. Buck is older than I thought.
Jack

Would someone look up the word, accountability for me.

Wasn’t there a time when a decent man stood by what he said and wrote? What is going on here?

Mrs. Betenson passed away May 5, 1980. I believe she was 96 years old. I know and have spoken to family members who were with her at the end. She had suffered a stroke but her mind was still quite good.

It would seem someone may have dug a bigger hole, than they have dirt to fill.

The last time I was in Dixon/Baggs was 1958 and I shook the hand of Tom
Veron..I walked the streets visited the graves of my family.
some 12 years ago I contacted you about my finding,not only did not know my familly name. You did not want any information from me that was not Published before..

Kid
Over two years ago I was under the illusion that Mr. Buck was a real hisorian. I sent him a packet with part of my theory that Henry Long might be Harry Longabaugh. Silly me, I expected a courteous reply, what I got was an arrogant one sentance dismissal, and he was not interested in seeing more

Jerry,

Is this (below) the exchange you are referring to? My reply to you was three sentences and polite, especially considering that I thought your contention that Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh was entirely far-fetched.

Your reply to me was equally polite and closed with "Thanks."

All the best,
Dan

==========
4/11/03
Dan
Check out my new Sundance Kid Web site www.sundancekidhenrylong.com
Thanks
Jerry Nickle

4/11/03
Jerry --
Interesting -- though I can't say I see any resemblance between Sundance and Henry Long. The eyes, for example, are entirely different.
Nonetheless, best of luck. Dan

4/12/03
Dan
Your [sic] right, looks like he just got goosed. I think I will take a pole [sic] at the end of my site with a question like this "Do you think that Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh AKA The Sundance Kid."
Thanks.
Jerry
==========

Kid Dutrel,

Can you be a bit more specific about the 12-year old correspondence you referred to above? E.g., dates, subject, and signatory's name. If I can find it, I'd be happy to post it here. I suspect that the actual correspondence differs from your depiction of it. Just a hunch.

By the way, while rooting through our Etta Place files, I came upon a lengthy exchange of emails back in 2000 with an Idaho researcher about a Wyoming born piano teacher whom the researcher thought might be the Sundance Kid's chum.

Am I correct in assuming that you and the Idaho woman are speaking of the same person?

All the best,

Dan

Dan
We had two different exchages I didn't know that until now, you misled me but that's alright. I have other pictures and they your criteria of eyes,jaw line and ears.
What you the esteemed expert has failed to take into consideration is lighting,mackup, and cameria angle.

Of the emails I have received, regarding a respondent’s refusal to answer questions, one stood out. She says, this Mr. Buck has apparently written some unkind words about a Mrs. Betenson. Mrs. X (a minor follower of Butch, in fact said she was watching the movie while composing her email), is also an elementary school teacher. She has a great idea. She pointed out the questions were probably in too difficult a format. She went on to say, present the question as a multiple choice, anyone can answer that type of question.

I can only try.

A I never said anything bad about Lula Betenson

B Because of who I am, I can say & write anything and not be held accountable.
C It should not have been written, it has no bearing on our theory I am sorry.
D That is a great question but first let me say this.

E My bluff has been called, I fold.

Please answer by selecting one of the above.

Of course anyone can answer, although I am hopeful a certain historian will honor all of his with his response.

Bob

Kid
I think you and the other posters have hit onto something. Mr Buck does like new information if the discovered information might jeopardize his reputation, and he does not like the discomfort and expense of field trips, unless of course the trip can be turned to an exotic vacation paid for by others, like his S/A fiasco. What mr. Buck likes is to dissect the published work of others and if it jeopardizes his reputation he discredits the work like a crooked lawyer. And he does his research from the fonfort of an office and calls himself the worlds foremost authority

That should reed" Mr Buck does not like new information..."

Jerry, you mentioned above that we corresponded “over two years ago.” I went back through our correspondence and found an exchange more than three years ago and thought, well, that might be it. I guess not.

So I went even further back; turns out we also corresponded four years ago. Is that what you are referring to?

Your description of the correspondence: “Silly me, I expected a courteous reply, what I got was am arrogant one sentence dismissal, and he was not interested in seeing more.”

Actual correspondence:

On October 2, 2002, you mailed me copies of some photos along with a letter with information about your ancestors, including the suggestion – “Family rumor has it,” was your phrase – that William Henry Long “rode with Butch Cassidy.”

You added: “If you are interested I would be happy to tell you what little I know.”

Here is my October 9, 2002 email reply:
==========
Dear Jerry–

Thanks for your letter and the photos. William Henry Long is wearing a splendid hat. We’ve never come across his name in our research, but that doesn’t mean a great deal. There were a slew of young cowboys back then whose names never got mentioned. We would certainly like to hear whatever you can tell us about Long’s story.

By the way, the latest TRUE WEST, published up the road from you in Cave Creek, is a special issue on Butch Cassidy. Dan
==========

Now Jerry, I don’t think it’s any exaggeration to say that was a courteous answer, and certainly nothing approximating an ”arrogant one line dismissal.”

You replied with an email on October 10, 2002, setting out additional information on your family’s history, but nothing that linked Long directly to Cassidy. You also wrote: “That is all the factual documented information I have. I will answer any questions you have.”

I replied October 11, 2002 as follows:

==========
Jerry–
Thanks for the additional information. If we can hone in on Long and his association with Butch Cassidy, exactly what was it, and where does the story come from. Dan
==========

“I don’t have any information that could directly tie Long to Cassidy,” was how your October 13 email reply began. You provided more family stories about Long indicating he may have been a bandit with Cassidy, as well as your own speculative thoughts. You closed saying that you had “some other family stories about Long,” and that you were willing to share them.

Here’s my October 13 reply, and I suspect this is what sticks in your mind. Our entire correspondence of 2002 and 2004 telescoped to a single email:

==========
Jerry–
Thanks for the additional information. One has to marvel at the rich trove of lore out there. Dan
==========

Yes, Jerry, it’s true I had heard enough. I was finished. You did not appear to have anything more to tell me. Did I hurt your feelings that I didn’t agree with your speculation? Should I have lied and told you it was a remarkably well-researched, impressively presented narrative? Basically, what I wrote was a “thanks for sharing” coda to our exchange.

Dan

P.S. Jerry, Anne and I love new information, whether it agrees or disagrees with what we have written or believe is irrelevant. Read "Butch and Sundance: Still Dead?" or "Did Butch Cassidy Return? The Family Can't Decide," both online at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/

Dan
I make a short entry to the Kid, about our exchange, and your responce is endless blab. How I felt is not important I think you do this so you don't have to address Bob's post. Address Bob's post than one matters

The women I speak of was a teacher as her mother,mother was also born in Dixon wy..she taught edicate and proper speach.I sat right next to her as she played the panio and I always wondered why she wore a black
vale when she went out in public..

Dan
I will concede and say that I may have confused your post on this blog for what I thought I remembered years ago,I don"t keep that kind of records. I like your participation and I wish you would address Bob's posts so we can move onto Butch and Sundance. I have some other points and questions.

Kid
Do you intend to show your information and if so how. I for one would like to see it

It would appear Mr. Buck is very comfortable in directing readers to his vast array of information sites and equally happy and able to bring forth words he wrote years ago. Yet the words I refer to, he apparently doesn’t remember. You wrote the words Mr. Buck, I didn’t. I refer, of course to your “Who are those guys?” It would almost seem a person would have to have a cowardly tendency to run and hide from what he has written. Maybe not. I suppose it’s possible he is just more proud of his other accomplishments.

There is one other person who shares my knowledge,A distant family member
and between us we will decide to share with a trust worth person,who will not butcher the informaion and swear it is there own. All final information must be approved my us.
This will not be for profit or personal gain....... kid

Kid
Have you considered creating a web-page like I have. You will have total control, get the credit, and take the criticism. It is not very expensive and I can guarantee you that you will not make any money. Since I have control I get the e-mails, and I have become acquainted with some wonderful people, some from this blog alone, I have met relatives I didn't know I had

No Thanks.

No Thanks Jerry,
Thats the worst thing he could do.
Look at how they have jumped on you.

Jack
That's very true and like you said earlier you need a tough hide.

Dan
Please join us, just tell us which subjects you want to talk about.

Obscurants, trolls, and discussants, go back to the top of the page and refresh your memories on the subject at hand: "Did Butch Cassidy Retire to Spokane?"

Dan

P.S. Some posters hereabouts seem allergic to the thought that a discussion might involve conflicting ideas, anecdotes, or conclusions. A few even urge others not to post lest someone offer conflicting evidence or disagree with their conclusion. (A blog with no posts would be what? A blank screen?) Among these obscurants, "disagreements" are always spelled "attacks." Don't say a word; be an obscurant.

Was Charles Kelly a lair, No, but he didn't tell the complete story all the time as I will show here. Kelly knew my grandfather Jerry Jackson(possible Sundance Kid's son-in-law). Kelly used Jackson in his research for his 1936 book OUTLAW TRAIL Jackson is mentioned in Kelly's book on page 150. Kelly knew my uncles Worthen and Perry Jackson, he hired them as guides to tour Wayne County Utah, I have a NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC photograph on my web-site showing Kelly with uncle Perry. Kelly wrote an article in 1943 in which he says he accidently met uncle Worthen. The unnamed father is Granpa Jerry Jackson. Kelly had known the Jacksons for years. To access the Kelly article Google search "Ancient Antelop Run"

Attack? Where does that come from? Even my professors allowed one to question them as to what they had said and why it was said. Even more so, if their theory was in written form. NEVER, did I run into one who would deny and run and hide, from what they had written. I seem to recall, they were all very proud of their efforts and especially their results.

If someone does not truly believe in and won’t stand up for what they have written, then why write it in the first place?

I posted this on my website about a month ago, and thought it may be of interest to some of you. The following passages are from "Annals of the Former World" by John McPhee.

"Through the eighteen-nineties, there are various hiatuses in the resume of John Love, but as a cowboy and homesteader he very evidently prospered, and he also formed durable friendships--with Chief Washakie, for example, and with the stagecoach driver Peggy Dougherty, and with Robert LeRoy Parker and Harry Longabaugh (Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid). There came a day when Love could not contain his developed curiosity in the precesence of the aging chief. He asked him what truth there was in the story of Crowheart Butte. Had Washaki really eaten his enemy's heart? The chief said, "Well, Johnny, when you're young and full of life you do strange things."

Robert LeRoy Parker was an occasional visitor at Love's homestead on Muskrat Creek, which was halfway between Hole-in-the-Wall and the Sweetwater River--that is, between Parker's hideout and his woman. Love's descendants sometimes stare bemusedly at a photograph discovered a few years ago in a cabin in Jackson Hole that had belonged to a member of the Wild Bunch. The photograph, made in the middle eighteen-nineties, shows eighteen men with Parker, who is wearing a dark business suit, a tie and a starchy white collar, a bowler hat. Two of the bunch are identified only by question marks. One of these is a jaunty man of middle height and strong frame, his hat at a rakish angle--a man with a kindly face, twinkling shrewd eyes, and a mustache growing over his mouth like willows bending over a brook. It may be doubtful whether John Love would have joined such a group, but when you are young and full of life you do strange things." (P.304-305)

"In one of those Yale summers, while taking some time away from the rock, he badly cut his foot in a lake near Lander. He made a tourniquet with his bandanna, and limped down to see Doc Smith. This was Francis Smith, M.D., who had coaxed David's father past the tick fever, had seen David's mother though a strep infection that nearly killed her, and, over the years, had put enough stitches in David to complete a baseball. Now, as he worked on the foot, he told David that one of his recent office visitors had been Robert LeRoy Parker himself (Butch Cassidy),

David said politely that Cassidy was dead in Bolivia, and everybody knew that.

Smith said everybody was wrong. The patient had appeared in the doorway, and had stood there long and thoughtfully, searching the face of the doctor. Pleased by what he did not find, he said. "You don't know who I am, do you?"

The doctor said, "You look familiar, but I can't quite say."

The patient remarked that his face had been altered by a surgeon in Paris. Then he lifted his shirt, exposing the deep crease of a repaired bullet would--craftmanship that Doc Smith recognized precisely as his own." (P.358)

This women has been overlooked from the start. spent most of the 1800's in the wyoming area.She left Dixon area about the same time as Butch.
I can put her in Washington state
Alaska ,and even China so there is some merit to those who feel some or parts of the gang ended up in alaska and washington state. Then back to
California with a $30,000

Kid Dutrel, why not write up the Dixon women's story as an article and have it published in one of the outlaw-history periodicals, e.g., the WOLA JOURNAL or the NOLA QUARTERLY. If you've got some photographs, all the better.

m/a/z/e, an April 1970 monograph written by W.L. Marion has a different version of Dr. Smith meeting Butch in Lander: "[Butch Cassidy] visited Evanston, where he had many friends and finally in 1933 he went to Lander. The late Doctor W.F. Smith saw Charley Stough, former sheriff and now County Commissioner, talking to a man in the bar of the Noble Hotel. Doc Smith had followed the career of Butch Cassidy and was thunder-struck when he saw the man Stough was talking to. When Charley came out, Doc Smith stopped him and askedd, 'Charley, could that have been Butch Cassidy you were just talking to?' Stough said, 'Yes, that was Butch, he's clean.' The statute of limitations had cleared him."

Further on in the tale, Marion says Butch stayed with E.J. Farlow at his ranch: "Farlow told the writer [Marion] that Butch took off his clothes and showed him the scars of the battle he and Longabaugh and Etta Place had with the rurales at the railroad station in Bolivia."

In a preface to the monograph, Pearl Baker said that John Broedeker had told her "that Butch had taken him and his father, Hank Boedeker, into the bathroom in 1933 and stripped and showed them the scars, at least 7, sustained in that battle."

In McPhee's version, Butch had a face-lift in Paris, which is the William T. Phillips story. The photograph of 18 men plus Butch sounds like the one published on p. 133 of Larry Pointer's IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY. The man said to be Butch is wearing a bowler hat. (It's not Butch, but that's another matter.) Per the Charter family (as well as Pointer), the photo originally came from them. The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that Bert Charter is in the photo.

All the best,

Dan

I just recieved an email at my web-site that reads:

Great research. As an outlaw history buff, Ive always known that the San Vincente story was never accepted as "fact" prior to the Butch and Sundance movie. James D. Horan's "Desperate Men" is one of the best accounts of the Wild Bunch, and in the first edition he gives no credence to the SV story. However, in editions published after the movie, he jumps on the SV bandmagon. Just goes to show how pop culture can influence "history"

This will remain anonymous.

Dan
"Obscurants and Trolls". Do you have to call people names, those terms apply to you not Bob. Looks like me and the boys might have to beat-up on you again.

m/a/z/e
I visited your web-site, it's very good. I bet you make a lot of money with it. Thanks for posting that version I found it very interesting and who's to say which one is right.

Kid
If you have a story that conflicts with Mr Bucks version, you can forget about having it published in a magazine. Mr Buck has a lot of influence with those groups he mentions and others. Your best bet is the internet.

"Just goes to show how pop culture can influence "history"

When history becomes legend...print the legend. - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

Dan,

Would you mind if I cross-posted your response to my blog as a follow up to the original post?

Jerry, I don’t have the time or energy to go into great detail (for which we are probably both thankful) but your chronology is wrong. The published reports of Butch and Sundance dying in South America began in 1913 (although in the first one the writer incorrectly identified one of the bandits as Kid Curry), long before the 1969 movie came out. In 1930, Arthur Chapman published an account, as given to him be Percy Seibert (who had once employed Butch and Sundance in Bolivia), in THE ELKS MAGAZINE. That story ran in a couple newspapers, including the DENVER POST. Charles Kelly published THE OUTLAW TRAIL in 1930 (republished in a revised edition in 1959), with the story of the Bolivian shootout.

Then there was Matt Warner’s THE LAST OF THE BANDIT RIDERS (1940): Butch and Sundance “ranched and robbed in Bolivia and Argentina and were finally killed in a fight with soldiers that had been chasing them.”

As for James Horan, the first edition DESPERATE MEN came out in 1954 and the revised edition in 1962, both prior to the 1969 movie. In chapter 33 of the first edition he tells two versions of Butch and Sundance’s death, both in South America – Percy Seibert’s story of the shootout in San Vicente, Bolivia, and former Pinkerton operative Frank Dimaio’s account of their deaths in Mercedes, Uruguay. For the revised edition, Horan had gathered more information about the events in Bolivia and, in chapter 49, reduced the account of Butch and Sundance’s deaths to only the San Vicente version.

Here’s the last graf of chapter 33: “And so it ends. Far to the north, Hole in the Wall, Robber’s Roost, and Brown’s Hole had gone back to the empty quiet of geological time and the fire Butch Cassidy had brought to the Andes was out.” In chapter 49 in the 1962 edition he changed a few words, but the message was the same.

Horan also published several periodical articles in the 1950s and 1960s in which he detailed the Bolivian shootout. For example, “Solved: the Mystery of Butch Cassidy’s End, CAVALIER, June 1954, and “Butch Cassidy’s Last Stand,” TRUE WESTERN ADVENTURES, April 1961.

In Horan’s THE PINKERTONS, published in 1967, he says succinctly, “Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were later killed near San Vicente, Bolivia, by a detachment of Bolivian cavalry.”

In other words, your anonymous correspondent is wrong.

None of this proves whether the Bolivian shootout happened, just that it was the generally accepted version long before the movie came out. (In fact, the movie was based on Horan, Kelly, et al.)

There were also rumors of Butch and/or Sundance’s escape from South America and deaths elsewhere published over the decades, chiefly starting in the 1930s when William T. Phillips’s escapades became public. (See, “Butch & Sundance: Still Dead?” on our website). But the revisionist books all came after the movie – Larry Pointer, IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY (1977) arguing that Butch returned as William T. Phillips; Ed Kirby, THE RISE AND FALL OF THE SUNDANCE KID (1983) that Sundance returned as Hiram BeBee; and Lula Parker Betenson, BUTCH CASSIDY MY BROTHER (1975), that Butch returned as, well, Butch. Not that it matters, but they’re all wrong, in my humble opinion.

All the best,

Dan

P.S. Kid Dutrel, whatever influence I have -- which is minimal -- would be in helping you get your story published. Whether it agrees or not with what I think is irrelevant.

And m/a/z/e, remind me, which is your website -- or, better yet, give me the URL.

m/a/z/e, found it -- at first, I did not connect it with your acronym. Very impressive website; I think I posted a comment there a few months back.

Anyway, sure, go ahead and cross-post.

Dan

Dan
I just checked your claim that the first edition was 1964 but Amazon.com shows the first edition as 1949. Think I'll go with Amazon.

Jerry, you're correct, good eye. The 1954 edition I have is a Bonanza Books reprint of the 1949 edition.

Your anonymous corresondent's point, however, is still entirely incorrect: Horan was writing about the Bolivian shootout long before the 1969 movie came out. Your correspondent has it precisely backwards: the movie was based on Horan, Kelly, and others, not the other way around.

In fact, part of the lore surrounding the movie is that Horan threatened to sue 20th Century Fox and a settlement was arranged.

All the best,

Dan

It is clearly high time to put an end to all this nonsense. For this to be accomplished, in a proper and prudent manner, judgments will have to be made.

It has become abundantly clear, after a certain author has been given numerous opportunities to explain and defend, a statement he made in writing, which he presents on at least one of his numerous web-sites and due to the length of time, without a response, one can only assume, there will be no such response forthcoming

Granted, if this were just a common statement, then no big deal. When in actuality, it is a statement, indicating that old age had corroded the mind of an elderly lady, who passed away in 1980. Now it IS a big deal. A very INSULTING, big deal. Putting such comments about someone else, in written or any form, is unacceptable and in extremely poor taste.

This having been said, we arrive at even a bigger concern. One can only assume, since the person who wrote these very uncomplimentary and untrue words, refuses to come forward, he must have a problem with what he wrote. There is no place here for the L word. There is a place for a very incorrect and totally unnecessary comment to be explained. Why would any ethical writer ever say such a thing and if said, then not be willing to defend what he has written? After the author has chosen to ignore and hide from such inquiry, should a reader be allowed to question this author’s credibility? It would certainly seem, at least, a consideration. Of all the words this man has repeated, written and stated as fact, are these the only ones that aren’t true? In due time, this will be known.

Before one judges others, he should first, judge himself.

Dan
My grandfather had two different blacksmith shops on the road Pear Baker describes in her book, first chapter page one. The first one was at Cainville the second one in Freemont. In my research I have made several discoveries that people find very interesting. When I first joined this Blog my intentions was to share this information, but I'm going to take the advice that Jack gave the Kid and keep this information to myself. I'm sorry Dan but your just to unpleasant

Dan,
Please explain why you feel it's necessary to defend your theories, by attacking anyone who's theories differ from yours. Please excuse my ignorance, is theory a fact? I'm confused, that would mean in fact, that the dinosaurs became extinct twenty different ways. Why do those guys keep digging up bones, if a theory is a fact, we already know what happened to the dinosaurs. I'll bet those guys think a theory is a theory until they have proof to call it a fact, seems logical to me.

Mr. Buck
You in fact don't have proof that Leroy Parker legally changed is to Butch Cassidy. You in Fact don't have proof that Butch Cassidy died in South America. In fact, no one knows what happened to Butch Cassidy, but we have theories, that may one day lead us to the proof, that will make it a fact. Who knows your theories may one day become a fact, on the other hand, if your proven wrong, what then. I suspect you really don't think anyone will ever know for sure. You know by discrediting others, you will create doubt, and preserve your version of history. You've spent so much time lately quoting, dissecting, and dodging, that it would seem doubt is creeping into the minds of many, about your expertise. Since we'er a couple thousand miles apart, you have my permission to call me an ignorant lying obscurant troll on this forum, but I would advise you to smile if you look me in the eye and call me an ignorant lying obscurant troll

All the best

Thanks Dan, it's posted.

Dear M/A/Z/E:

You are to be complimented on the majority of material on your web-site. Knowing very little about all this, I found the presentation of your information to be mainly fair to both sides of the Cassidy issue and it was enjoyable to see your information shown, without any attempts to discredit others.

In time we may be able to discuss your “cat-fight”comment. This can only be done properly, when it is understood, what a cat-fight means to you.

Since you also mention the “Churchill” era on this blog, I was drawn to your post of 9/27 12:59 pm. You refer to a line from “the man who shot Liberty Valance” as, “When history becomes legend...print the legend. According to THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JOHN FORD by Scott Eyman, your stated line should read “WHEN THE LEGEND BECOMES FACT, PRINT THE LEGEND. I thought pointing this out in a polite and courteous manner, before others did, in maybe less polite words, was apropos.

It is also possible, Mr. Eyman, (John Ford) and Churchill all had the same research team.

Dan
Why don't you take a lesson from M/A/Z/E and present your argument in a courteous manor without discrediting others?

All the best,

Jerry

Thanks for the correction...it's a great quote.

m/a/z/e

It is good to have you respond, regarding your “quote” mistake. What I find refreshing, is not that an error was made,(happens all the time), but the one who made the error has the character to acknowledge the oversight and accept corrective comments. One who operates in this manner, has the respect of those he deals with.

Maybe soon, we can discuss your “cat-fight” comment. As you, I’m sure know, the reasons behind the spoken word, are sometimes much more interesting, than the actual words themselves.

Thank you for your time.

Bob Jayne

There is a photograph, of a Butch Cassidy inscription, in the Charles Kelly callection at the Marriot Library. It is not identified but if you look closely you can see part of the inscription. It was plastered over by the Park Service in 1990. James H. Knipmeyer book BUTCH CASSIDY WAS HERE page 124 gives the details. My uncle Perry showed this inscription along with the Sundance inscription many years ago. I have a Photograph of the Sundance inscription on my web-site. To access this inscription google search "Marriott Library" hit "Photograph Archives" and enter "Kelly" into the search box. It is the eleventh photograph on page 37.

I am new to this blogging phenomenon, so I will try to be brief & to the point. I get tired of reading the entries that ramble on & on, especially this detour to Churchill. I’d like to get back to Butch Cassidy. My husband & I had always enjoyed the stories about the Old West, especially about Butch & the Wild Bunch & that’s how I discovered this blog. What’s this one-sided dialog between Mr. Jayne & the lack of response from the author, Mr. Buck, regarding something Buck supposedly had written about Mrs. Betenson? I count a number of authors among my friends & have always found it easy to get them started talking about their work - you just simply ask them a question & away they go.(Sometimes the problem is to get them to stop talking.) So this question by Mr. Jayne has surprised me, in that Mr. Buck consistently avoids giving an answer.

I also want to make it very clear that I am not here to be evaluated by any “experts” as to what I know & don’t know. I am just a Southern lady who wishes to be respected as I seek to learn more. No negative comments about me, please?

Being simply a layperson who is sometimes confused with this mass of information/disinformation about the history of the Old West, I am presently interested in a rather narrow time period in this era. I believe I have read where Robert L. Parker left the family in the fall of 1884, when he was 18 years old. The ranch was somewhere south of Circleville, Utah, where the family had moved following Robert Parker’s birth (I think he was born near Beaver, UT.)

Now, my question is if there is more information available covering the first 18 years of Parker’s life? I have seen stories of the “stolen” jeans with an IOU left for the storekeeper, in Milford, perhaps? I’ve also seen some things on Mike Cassidy, who could hardly be considered a good role model for the Parker at that young age. I wonder if there is more information somewhere that speaks of any other strong influences he encountered as a youngster….more about his first 18 years.

To preserve my privacy & reduce comments by people who might know me, I will be known here as Queen Ann.

Any constructive remarks & information will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Queen Ann

Queen Anne, Butch Cassidy’s early life is covered in Richard Patterson, Butch Cassidy: A Biography (1998); Lula Parker Betenson, Butch Cassidy My Brother (1975); and Charles Kelly The Outlaw Trail (1996 reprint).

As for the “lack of response” you cited above, that would be exactly what? That is to say, precisely what is it that, as you wrote, “Mr. Buck consistently avoids giving an answer” to?

I will give you some help:

(1) Our article, “Did Butch Cassidy Come Home? The Family Can’t Decide,” can be found at

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/parker.htm

(2) “Butch & Sundance: Still Dead?” is at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/still.htm

(3) “Who are those guys?” an expended version of a feature published in the Butch and Sundance issue of True West November/December 2002 can be found here:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/quiz.htm

The Q&A that seems to have send at least one poster hereabouts round the bend is the following:
==========
Q: How come Butch's sister Lula Parker Betenson said he came home in 1925 if he didn't?

A: At the time Lula made her claim, many people believed that Butch had returned, so she may have seen no harm in simply inventing a visit to trump Hollywood and write a book with a better story of how Butch, "the sainted abbot of the world's largest gang of outlaws" (as she once described him), defeated death. A more charitable explanation is that age had corroded her memory -- that is, some relative had visited the family's home in Circleville, and decades later that person became Butch in her mind. (Memories are memories of a memory, as the neuroscientists like to say.) In any case, most of Butch's immediate kin, including his father and other siblings, said he never returned.
==========

Another article worth a read is “Butch and Sundance,” which summarizes many of the myths that grew up about the outlaw duo’s lives:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/danne/slatta.htm

All the best,
Dan

Dan
If Butch was not the leader of the world's largest outlaw gang who was? After you answer this question I will enlighten you as to why Butch's father said what he did.

A toast to Queen Ann.

Shows the power of a lady. In just a few words, she has accomplished what others, using thousands of words, never could. An author has finally owned up to what he has done. Bravo, Ann Bassett.

Now if we can locate her sister Josie, maybe we will get this author to reveal the foremost answer of all. WHY WAS IT EVER DONE ???

As you may not be responsible for the “cat-fight” description appearing on your w/site, m/a/z/e, it is unfair to ask you to explain. Although your use of cat seems unbelievably accurate in this discussion.

Your mentioned animal is known for the same tendencies as our favorite author. They both like to cover up, what they have done.

Kinda makes me wish I was Amos Herbert Bassett.

Jerry, that is a question that would be difficult to answer with precision. The bandit tradition worldwide -- for example, Balkan haiduks, Indian daciots, and Brazilian cangaceiros -- streches back centuries.

For an overiew of the bandit phenomenon, take a look at Eric Hobsbawm, BANDITS (rev. ed. 2000). Another good read is Billy Jaynes Chandler, THE BANDIT KING: LAMPIAO OF BRAZIL, the history of the Jesse James of Brazil, whose gang of 100 or more rampaged through the 1920s and 1930s in the country's northeastern frontier.

By comparison, Butch Cassidy was small potatoes. We made a stab at separating myth and reality in "The Wild Bunch: Wild But Not Much of a Bunch," TRUE WEST, November/December 2002. At any given moment, there were seldom more than a handful of outlaws in what later became mythologized as the Wild Bunch. If one totals all the bandits involved at one time or another with Butch Cassidy the number does not exceed 20, and is probably well under that.

Of course, as time went on and the legend grew, so did the gang. Everybody rode with Butch.

Dan

P.S. As for the latest post, one can hardly "own up" to what one has already published, put online, and been referring readers to since this discussion began.

Dan
So Lulu was right after all,Butch was the leader of the world's largest, gang in his time, just like Lulu said. You spent the whole night searching the internet trying to find something to show Lulu was wrong and the conclusion is, Lulu was right, and you were wrong.

In responding to, “As for the latest post–one can hardly “own up” to what one has already published, put online, and been referring readers to since this discussion began”.

Already published—that is right.

Put on line----that is right.

Been referring readers to since this discussion began----????

You are almost right, you have done a great deal of referring (promoting?) your numerous locations, that present your information. The referring to “Who are those guys?”, including your “mind” statement about Mrs. Betenson, apparently has been ‘referred” to by a Bob Jayne. Your name is Daniel Buck.

I don’t believe it was until Queen Ann asked, that you even acknowledged your “mind” comment or where it was.

All the best,

Bob

I was somewhat afraid this is what I would get into.

I will do my best to answer Mr. Buck. I want to be accurate, so I repeat part of his response. ("As for the 'lack of response' you cited above, that would be exactly what? That is to say, precisely what is it that, as you wrote, 'Mr. Buck consistently avoids giving an answer' to?") Recognizing that my memory could possibly be faulty (but certainly not corroded) I reread the whole blog. Whew!!! It would appear from the beginning there have been numerous people, including one whom I assume is a relative of Mrs. Betenson, expressing their displeasure in comments and written material that Mr. Buck is responsible for. Then others, mainly Mr. Jayne, have asked numerous (I did not count, but repeated) times, to explain your comment about Mrs. Betenson's mind. Did you fail to see these question, Mr. Buck? Or did you simply attempt to evade them?

Not too long ago, I was talking with a dear female friend from Wyoming. She likes the Butch stuff too. During our long conversation, she mentioned someone telling her of being at a meeting (in Green River or Rock Springs, as I recall) when someone asked Mr. Buck(she said Mrs. Buck was there also) about their comments about the state of Mrs. Betenson's mind. Together they said they wanted to know where this came from, as they had never said such a thing.

Now that I have read what was "never said", as an above average intelligent human being and more so, another woman, I am appalled such a statement would be made by anyone, let alone by a publishing author. I won't get into a word fight with you, Mr. Buck. Ladies don't do that. Although in this case, I was tempted to allow myself to be baited into it, my higher self prevailed. I take the higher ground.

Now I at least understand your reluctance in admitting doing this. I also believe I read somewhere that Mrs. Betenson passed away back in the 80's.

I do thank you, Mr. Buck, for directing me to reading materials and numerous sites to find more of your own writings. After reading a bit of your writings I think I will pass and seek advice elsewhere.

Something tells me I may not get an answer, but nevertheless I plead - Mr. Buck, would you tell me what your facts were that enabled you to make such a firm determination about Mrs. Betenson & her supposedly feeble state of mind?

Next.....The question you answered with the remarkable "mind" statement, was "How come Butch's sister, Lula Parker Betenson, said he came home in 1925, if he didn't?" Based on the proven, supposedly factual information I have seen from you, with all due respect to you Sir, isn't that just slightly presumptuous on your part?

In my way of thinking, you asked an unproven question, then provided your own totally unverified answer. I don't recall ever seeing that done before by respected authors. I will add also that what amazes me most about all this is that you obviously see nothing wrong with what you have done. I am astounded at your apparent arrogance.

My visit with all you posters will be short,I guess. I would have enjoyed getting to know others who have offered their contributions.

I am reminded of what I do when I see a thorn among my roses.

Thank you.

Queen Ann

Dan
Butch's father and that generation had a different attitude than the succeeding generations, they weren't particulary proud of Butch then and he was a fugitive then and they wanted to protect him. Who were the people asking the questions and was it any of their bussiness? By 1970 things had changed, a big Hollywood hit and Lulu was kind of proud to have Butch as a brother,I would have been. Butch was long dead, and it was time to set history right. Mr Buck you did not take those things into consideration when you wrote those insulting articles. As smart as you are you just don't get it.

Glad to help

Jerry

Queen Ann, I salute you,and I will join a toast to Queen Ann

Dan
sometime back I threatened to expose you for what you are. I think now Queen Ann has done that very thing.

All the best

Jerry

Thank you Queen Ann,
Maybe now we can get back to the question, what happened to Butch.

We all have the right to present our theories in this forum, without the fear of being humiliated or scoffed at by any individual, no matter what level of self proclaimed expertise they claim in all matters pertaining to Butch Cassidy. An open mind could be beneficial to even our beloved Mr. Buck. A little nugget of information may lead us to the mother load. Who among us has the right to say you have nothing of value to contribute. Let us resume the search for Butch and the gang in a courteous and dignified manner.
Thank you,

It appears Charles Kelly thought Queen Ann Bassett was Etta Place. Goggle search " Marriot Library" click "photograph archives enter "Kelly" into the search box. Read the caption on the second photograph on page six. William Phillips, Henry Long, and Ann Bassett, No, that's to simple and it would put some writers out of work.

Since it appears we are have hit a slack period, with no one willing to offer their information for others to read and enjoy, or possibly be judged not accurate, it seems like a good time for a question or two. Hopefully, we will obtain an answer, without the help of our Queen Ann. With due respect to Mr. Buck, I fully understand his reluctance in dealing with my questions.

In re-reading your letter of January 7, 1998 to Mrs. Dora Flack, as we both know, I feel the letter was most inappropriate and totally unnecessary, but that is not why I am here. I am here for the following.

The third paragraph of your letter has this sentence. “Some people believe Lula was simply retelling stories she learned from Kerry Ross Boren, Harry Longabaugh Jr., and others”.

Others is impossible to reply to.

Kerry Ross Boren. Although I do have some letters from him, you and I both know it is rather difficult to communicate with him, as he is currently in the Utah State Prison.

Harry Longabaugh Jr. Here is where it may be easier to ask you a question, or two. Would you care to tell us where you learned of the information obtained from HLJ, as you stated, and used by Mrs. Betenson in her book. I will even help you with your answer.

Having met this person, whose entire life has been spent in Hanksville, Utah on our first trip there and revisiting numerous times since, and since becoming a friend and having a great deal of information sent to me, by this individual, I have learned to believe what is said. It helps to know, this person was a also close friend of Lula’s. Having communicated with her until just before she passed away. I also am quite sure she would be most willing, especially face to face, to discuss the condition of Mrs. Betenson’s mind, with you, Mr. Buck.

To Mr. Longabaugh Jr. As shown, you say, “some people believe”, apparently you do also or you would not have put those word in print.

Here is Mrs. Betenson’s “learning” experience with Harry Longabaugh Jr. Not long after the movie came out, a gentleman appeared, claiming to be the son of the Sundance Kid. All his activities and travels, is not why we are here. His involvement with Mrs. Betenson, is.

Mr Longabaugh shows up in Hanksville, Utah. He has a sleeping bag, suitcase and no money. Me friend had to pay for his room. He was wanting to see Lula Parker Betenson. Their Bishop, already going to Circleville, drove him there. My friend phoned Lula to advise her of the visitor. My friend says, he got his stuff to the front porch, where, Lula’s son met him. The meeting did not last long and Lula’s son paid for the bus ticket to Ogden.

Later Lula received a letter from Longabaugh, apologizing for his behavior. The letter came from Denver. Apparently Robert Redford heard of this fellow and asked my friend to see if he could be found. Using the Denver address, a trip was made to Denver. Here they found a rather poor hotel, in an even worse area. It was quickly learned Mr. Longabaugh was no longer there, nor the money to pay for the hotel bill. He had skipped.

The next Longabaugh was heard from was the news of his death in a fire.

From the source of this information, I tend to believe, this is what occurred, when Mrs. Betenson “learned” her information from Harry Longabaugh Jr.

Interesting isn’t it?

Courtesy Little Snake River Museum Savery, Wyoming.
The curator of the museum is a native of the Little Snake River Valley
who's family were among the first settlers in the valley.
The museum is located in the heart of Cassidy country, a must see for
Cassidy enthusiasts.
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
The Sundance Kid worked and broke horses for William Crawford Beeler in
Slater, Colorado during the winter of 1896.
Stan D. Hays remembers hearing about how Butch and the gang
camped at the Reader Ranch several times. (north of the museum in
Savery) He said the Sundance Kid worked as a hand for Al Reader under
the alias Henry Lonzo. He may have worked for the Wrens as well. He was
reputed to be a good, hard worker who kept to himself.
Snake River Profiles vol 1 pg 26, Chet Morgan who was born in 1890
stated that when he was 6 or 7 years old the Powder horn gang headed by
Butch Cassidy came to Baggs to celebrate. That would have been in 1896
or 1897.
Profile vol 2 pg 10, Sid Weber of Baggs remembered when he was working
on a bridge may 1946 north of Baggs when two elderly gentlemen came by
early in the forenoon. They ask questions about Gill Gaddis and Tom
Vernon who was very good friends of Butch. Tom was visited by these
gentlemen and Tom did say that Butch had been in town.

John P. "Jack" Ryan: Saloon Keeper Owned Jack's Bulldog Saloon in Baggs, Wyoming, early 1890's until the fall of 1898. Ryan was a close friend of the Sundance Kid, Butch Cassidy, Flat Nose George Curry and other outlaws, Bert Charter was a bar tender/dealer at the Bulldog Saloon. The Pinkerton Detective Agency gave Ryan the code name "Basket". There was something wrong with his eyes, They called him "cockeyed".
In the fall of 1898, Ryan sold the Bulldog Saloon, and moved to Rawlins, Wyoming went to work as a Brakeman for the Union Pacific Railroad between Rawlins and Green River. In September 1898, he opened The "Boquet Saloon" in Rawlins. The day before the Wilcox Train Robbery he sold the Boquet Saloon. In July 1899 he opened the "Home Ranch Saloon" in Rawlins. In December 1900 Ryan and T. E. Buckley leased the Club Saloon/Gambling Hall with an option to buy. By January 1900 Ryan had a enough money to buy the building and lot of the Home Ranch Saloon, a gold watch and chain along with a 2 1/2 caret diamond ring. The Pinkertons considered Ryan as a conduit for secret messages between the Wild Bunch and associates. In the winter of 1900, The Pinkertons received information that Ryan might be laundering stolen loot. At about the same time Assistant Superintendent, Murry, of the Pinkertons' Denver office had discovered that one "Alonzo" aka Harry Longabaugh known around Rawlins as "Swede" had been in Rawlins, with a lot of Gold Coin and "Currency", that appeared to be blackened or burned. Murry would later claim that Ryan had admitted that some $1500 worth of charred currency had been exchanged in the home ranch by local gamblers, and a rancher from the Dixon area. Bert Charter is thought to have been a silent partner of Jack Ryan, in any case, Charter was a bar tender/dealer involved in the day to day operations of Ryan's Saloons, until Ryan sold out in 1904, and Charter moved back to Baggs. In 1907, Ryan opened a coal mine in Walcott. Ryan was killed in a rock fall in the Edison Tunnel in 1924, and is buried in Rawlins. Butch Cassidy is thought to have visited Ryan shortly before his death.
A more detailed account of Ryan is available at the Carbon County Museum in Rawlins.

This is getting ridiculous. My interest in Butch and Sundance has now expanded to an Etta Place. May I please explain.

Trying to learn more about me, Queen Ann, I have found a lifetime of reading. This stuff just does not end. I was excited when I read that I was very likely "the" Etta Place. I read this surprising bit of information about me in a little book by Doris Karren Burton, QUEEN ANN BASSETT ALIAS ETTA PLACE. I must admit I am not sure that I was ever Etta, although it does sound like it would have been fun. Of course wanting to learn more about me and Etta, I came across one of many sources of information, i.e. ETTA PLACE: A Most Wanted Woman....by Daniel Buck and Anne Meadows.

To be honest, I was reading merrily along, enjoying learning about who I might be, when I read a name that had just been at the center of an exchange with Mr. Buck - Lula Parker Betenson - regarding clarification of statements he had made, but didn't make. Then I was told he had been pointing these words out since the start of this forum. Sorry, Sir, I gave up trying to find them.

Returning to Etta: In their "A Most Wanted Woman" they are pointing out statements made by a Marvel Lay Murdock, the mother of Elzy Lay (another new one to find out about), about whether Etta did or did not stay at Robber's Roost and was she with Butch or Sundance. Mrs. Murdock's comments are noted. THEN, my surprise, which I have to say, set me back on my heels. The next paragraph is an exact quote from their article.

"Cassidy's sister, Lula Parker Betenson, disputed the account, saying that Murdock's mother, Maude Davis, wasn't sure the woman at Robbers Roost was Etta Place and that she was with Sundance, not Cassidy."

Would you please, Mr. Buck, explain this confusion? And please don't tell me the answer has already been posted by you.

Apparently when Mrs. Betenson's statements are of value to you there is not the slightest hint of problems with her mind, as you were comfortable in using her remarks to show a difference with Mrs. Davis's views.

Now a time comes when Mrs. Betenson's comments do not agree with you so you determine her mind is of no value, due to corrosion.

Quite clearly you have some confusion in your own mind about Lula's mind. You can't have it both ways, Mr. Buck. Which way shall it be?

Maybe I should hang around a little longer, hmmm?

Queen Ann

Didn’t a recent poster say, a blog is where we can learn and be informed, or words to that effect. I admit, I have learned a great deal here.

A motion should be made, to replace the existing “foremost” diggers, with our newest digger, Queen Ann. I don’t know what type of shovel you use, lady but in your short time here, you have uncovered more interesting and factual information, than the previous mentioned “diggers” ever dreamed of.

Recalling how the author you mention (answered?) your last question, Queen Ann, this must be what it felt like to be in the audience during a live performance by Houdini. Everyone is thinking, how in the world is he going to get out of this one.

Where are you when we need you, Mr. Buck? You were here when a Parker family member dared to share her information. She regretfully, has not returned, since you dealt with her. Now here is a chance to redeem yourself. Queen Ann has been most gracious, in allowing you a second chance.

Some of us eagerly await your reply.

Bob

Dan
Come out from under that desk and talk to us.

Dan
You are wrong again. After our exchange of 27 Sept. I ordered Horan's book DESPERATE MEN. In this edition Horan mentions, but gives little credence to the San Vicente account of their deaths. I don't see how you could read it any other way. My anonymous email-er was right arter all.

That should read the 1949 edition

Harry Longabaugh Jr. claimed Harry Longabaugh used the alias Harry Long. Could Harry Longabaugh, Henry Lonzo,Henry Long and Harry Long be the same person?

It would appear, an author is having some difficulty finding the words to explain his differing views of Mrs. Betenson’s mind to Queen Ann. His diagnosis, of Lula’s mind seems to be based entirely on his immediate needs. Be that as it may, yesterday in efforts to arrange received emails, I ran across one, that at the time it was sent ( Jan, 06 ), was not meant to explain so much of what has been discussed and drawn out here but I believe it, in a very concise way, says it all.

Having contacted two authors regarding a picture of our three friends in front of their cabin in S/A, that appears in one of their books, I received their reply. It was disappointing to learn the picture could not be purchased. They also gave their feelings on the Cassidy dispute. They seem to side with Mr. Buck’s theory. It is not their answer that I believe displays their integrity. It is what they said when they answered.

“We’ve been good friends with Bill Betenson for years, so although we do not agree on everything, we definitely respect the family”. In five words, it was clearly explained. We definitely respect the family.

Most of us owe this author a tip of the hat. The email came from Paul Ernst.

The First Morman Bishop Of Butch Cassidy's home town,Circleville Utah, was James T. S. Allred. Allred was Henry Long's(aka Sundance kid,?) wife's uncle. Henry wife,Luzernia Allred Long's cousin was involved in a incedent on Nov. 24 1865 that led to Circleville being abandoned for a time. Google search the cousin's name " Ellen Aurelia Allred" to access the story of this incident.

I tip my hat to Paul Ernst.

Cleaned Out Butch Cassidy
Ex-Chief of Union Pacific's
Mounted Rangers Dies at 86
CHICAGO, Feb. 16----(UP)---- Tim Keliher who was bad medicine for
train robbers and card sharps of the old west, died quietly in his home
here last night. He was 86.

Keliher was formerly chief of the Union Pacific mounted rangers and his exploits were as thrilling as those pictured in present day movies and glorified in paperbacked novels.
Keliher, who was born in Williamsport, Pa., had built up a reputation as a Lincoln county, Neb., sheriff when the Union Pacific hired him to organize the Rangers.
At that time a notorious gang known as “the Wild Bunch” was terrorizing the railroad and it’s territory with periodic train robberies, bank dynamitings and stage holdups. Passengers were afraid to ride the trains.
Attempts to capture the “Wild Bunch” proved fruitless. Butch Cassidy, It’s leader, had a hard-to-get-at headquarters in Hole in the Wall valley, Wyo.
Keliher stopped all that with an ingenious plan. He outfitted a special coach with the Rangers horses quarter in one end and the Rangers in the other.
When word came of another robbery by the “Wild Bunch” Kellher and his crew would highball to the scene. In a matter of three years they cleaned out Cassidy and the “Wild Bunch.”
In 1910, Keliher, a big, rawboned Irishman, came to Chicago where he became a special agent for the Illinois central.
He traveled the entire line of the IC for nearly 30 years preying on card sharps, con men, drifters and other undesirables who frequented the line.
At Keliher’s bedside when he died were his widow, Ellen, a son and daughter.

Mr. Keliher sure had talant. He cleaned them without any help from the Pinkertons

Tom McCarty to the rescue

Andrew Allred was the first settler in Wayne County Utah. His son Daniel was the first white child born in Wayne county, and his granddaughter Chloe Jane Morrell was the second. Chloe Jane is my grandmother. (See RAINBOW VIEWS A HISTORY OF WAYNE COUNTY, page 186.)

There was a road that went over a summit from grass valley to rabbit valley and then onto Robbers Roost. The McCartys lived in Grass Valley. (See OUTLAW TRAIL,page 16.) In 1874 Allred established a trading post in Rabbit Valley, which is called Loa today. Grass Valley and Rabbit Valley were sparsely populated then so you could just about call the McCartys and the Allreds next door neighbors. All travelers would have to stop to refresh their animals at Allred's place because it was the first water and pasture for the animals after the climb over the summit. There is a monument there now. The outlaws and rustlers, including Cap Brown, Butch Cassidy, and the McCartys, used this road when they traveled to the Robbers Roost. They would have to stop at Allred's place, too. For a description of this road see Baker's THE WILD BUNCH AT ROBBERS ROOST, page 13.

In 1876 Allred's daughter Luzernia (future wife of Henry Long, aka Sundance Kid ?) married Silas Morrell. They lived and had children on his homestead. Around 1890 Silas broke his back in a sawmill accident, and this accident left him an invalid. Not only did Luzernia have to raise a family, she had to tend to an invalid husband and work the ranch. Silas lingered on for a few years and then died in 1893. See THE ANCESTORS AND DESCENDANTS OF WILLIAM WILSON MORRELL.

The McCartys attempted to rob the bank in Delta Colorado Sept. 6, 1893. Bill and his son Fred McCarty were killed, but Tom McCarty escaped. On Sept. 8, Gene Grimes met Tom hiding in western Colorado. Tom McCarty told Grimes about a family he had helped. Here is the story quoted directly from Baker's Book, THE WILD BUNCH at Robbers Roost. page 154.

Tom McCarty speaking
"Then we helped in other ways two. One time I was coming in from New Mexico and stopped at a ranch I hadn't been to in three of four years. In that time the man had died, and the woman was trying to get along by herself and raise three kids. She had the best location in that part of the state, good grass and a nice stream of water that ran through most of her range, and finally through her homestead. It was a good outfit but run down a lot when I pulled in. She was glad to see me, but there didn't seem to be much to eat in the place and it looked poor. I couldn't figure it out until she had told me her husband had been sick a long time and it had cost them a lot of money. The banker had always wanted the ranch to build a summer home on, so had loaned them the money and was coming out the next day to foreclose the mortgage. I had plenty of money on, usually do have, so I gave her the cash to pay of the mortgage. She didn't want to take it, but I told her it would be all right, wouldn't cost me anything. The next day I hid in the cedars and watched the banker ride in to collect his money. I couldn't hear what was said, But I could sure see he didn't like the deal a bit, when he had to give her back the mortgage. Don't rightly know why he had it along, just to gloat over her I guess. I made it a point to meet him down the trail a piece, and we had a little visit that cost him the profit of the deal. I didn't go back to the ranch but she must have heard what happened , and I often wondered what she thought about it."

This description given by Tom McCarty matches perfectly the Morrell family and their homestead in Fremont Utah.

I invite questions and criticism.

I have been trying to learn more about this "expert" on Butch Cassidy...Mr.
Dan Buck. So I re-read some previous entries in this blog. He seems to have an interesting pattern, it appears.Questions or comments which cast even the slightest doubt on his expertise, indeed his own credibility,appear to go unnoticed with no response from Mr. Buck. In my re-reading I also noted the
9/27/06 exchange between Mr. Buck and Mr. Nickle, regarding James Horan's
"Desperate Men". As I was not familiar with this book, I searched around and
was able to obtain a copy. As I am most certainly not an authority, and have never claimed to be, as Mr. Buck has, I naturally assumed that the
aforementioned Mr. Horan was another "authority" on the history of Butch and Sundance. Imagine my shock upon reading the opening paragraphs regarding Butch that Horan had already published as fact, I discovered what even I knew to be numerous errors about our Butch. He blatantly stated that "his name was George Leroy
Parker", when he was named at birth Robert Leroy Parker. Horan goes on to state that Parker "was born in Circle Valley, Utah' when he was actually born in or near Beaver, Utah. (It was only a few years later that the Parkers moved to the Circleville area.) Horan continues to fabricate that "he was born in 1867"
rather than April 13, 1866 and "was the oldest of 7 children" when I believe that Parker was the oldest of 13 children. Horan goes on to state that "he spent his boyhood on his father's ranch, 12 miles south of Circleville". As I have been to the Parker cabin south of Circleville several times, I know for a fact that it is much closer to 3 miles. I cannot help but puzzle over why Mr.Buck refers back to Mr. Horan's book to verify his own Butch and Sundance theory. While I am just a rookie at all this, I do know enough to question whether or not this Mr. Horan had even a clue at to what he was talking about, but he most certainly was not an authority. Apparently Mr. Buck thinks he was, at least when he can use it to support his own claims as to the death of Butch and Sundance in South America. Even in her own worst "corroded memory" moments,Mrs. Betenson was surely more accurate than Mr. Buck and Mr. Horan are........
combined.

With all due respect,
Queen Anne

Having read the recent post of Queen Ann, I am amazed by her facts. I have not read Mr. Horan’s DESPERATE MEN, but I have noted the prior comments by Queen Ann and they seem to be rather accurate.

Regarding what Horan wrote about Butch Cassidy.

He did not know Butch Cassidy’s real name.

He did not know where Robert Leroy Parker was born.

He did not know Mr. Parker’s actual date of birth.

He did not know the actual size of Max and Annie Parker’s family.

He did not know the actual location of the Parker ranch.

Please keep the above VERIFIED INFORMATION in mind, as another prior posting is quoted.

Sept/27 1:46 PM Mr. Daniel Buck states the following. In Mr. Horan’s 1st edition he cites two versions of Butch and Sundance’s deaths, both in S/A. For his revised edition, Horan had gathered more information about the events in Bolivia and in Chap 49 had reduced the account of Butch and Sundance’s deaths to only the San Vicente version.

Mr. Buck further points out, Mr. Horan published several articles in the 50's and 60's describing the Bolivian shoot out. For example, “SOLVED; THE MYSTERY OF BUTCH CASSIDY’S END”, Cavalier 6/54–BUTCH CASSIDY’S LAST STAND, True Western Adventures, 4/61.

In Horan’s THE PINKERTONS, published in 1967, he says succinctly, “Cassidy and the Sundance Kid were later killed near San Vicente, Bolivia, by a detachment of Bolivian cavalry.

Mr. Buck’s last paragraph ends with, “not that it matters, but they’re all wrong, in my humble opinion. This statement directed to those expressing views different from Mr. Buck’s.

Having now seen the level of expertise demonstrated by Mr. Horan and his astute grasp of historical knowledge pertaining to Butch Cassidy, why would anyone, in their right mind, even consider using his knowledge to corroborate their own writings, let alone do it.

Please note, I think Mr. Horan passed away some 20 odd years ago, but as we have seen, another author/historian has shown no qualms about criticizing the work of a deceased individual, and since this clearly indicates how far one will go to try and prove their own opinions, I feel it will be understood.

The shootout in Cortez

Silas Morrell broke his back in a sawmill accident in 1889. In 1891 the Morrells, with Andrew Allred, decided to go to Mexico. When they reached Farmington New Mexico they found the water bad and Silas's health continued to deteriorate, so they decided to return to Fremont Utah. On the return trip they stopped in Cortez Colorado. My grandmother Chloe Morrell's younger sister, Clara left an account of a gunfight that happened in Cortez. Clara was eleven at the time.

Clara's account
"In 1891, several families from the surrounding areas decided to go to Mexico. Thinking perhaps a warmer climate would improve Silas's health, Clara's parents went with them. In Cortez Colorado, they stayed for a short time where Clara did housework for other people to help supplement the family's income.
It was the days of the "Wild West Cowboys" coming to town. One time the cowboys came into town raising cane and shooting most of the night. The following morning Clara arrived at the home where she worked. The kitchen floor had been freshly scrubbed to clean the blood stains and two new graves were in the back yard" ANCESTORS AND DECEDENTS OF WILLIAM WILSON MORRELL Page 64.

The McCartys Had a ranch in Cortez Colorado, It was about a mile and a half from Harry longabaugh's cousin's ranch where Harry lived for a time. By 1891 Harry Longabaugh had known Tom McCarty, at least since 1889 when he along with Butch Cassidy and Matt Warner robbed the Telluride bank. Ernst.SUNDANCE MY UNCLE chapter five.

Maybe The Morrells and Andrew Allred were camped at the McCarty ranch, or in town, but either way they were in an outlaw element and they knew the McCartys and the other outlaws from the trading post in Rabbit Valley. They heard the shooting that night and that morning Clara discovered the results of that shootout. We know Harry Longabaugh had sustained a gun shoot wound in his left leg at some time and place out west, before he visited his family in Pennsylvania in 1900. SUNDANCE MY UNCLE page 158 and 159. Maybe this gunfight is where Harry received the gunshot wound, and If so he probably thought it time to leave the country. He could have joined the Morrells and Luzernia would have tended the leg wound.

Unlike some people I will at least try to answer questions.

Jerry Nickle

Sadly it would appear that if we are going to be blessed with the wisdom imparted and the respect shown to all by Daniel Buck, we must go to where m/a/z/e is located. I am told replies from Mr. Buck are available on this site. I was also told, questions are not permitted.

Please allow me to congratulate Queen Ann for her very precise reporting of the early statements made by James Horan, about Butch Cassidy, in his DESPERATE MEN. I borrowed an old copy and it is there, as she said, in black and white. I had to laugh, when Mr. Buck says, in a revised edition, after Mr. Horan had gathered more information about our boys in S/A he joined more with Buck’s opinion. Seeing how he “gathered” his information on Cassidy’s early years, he must of really had some good stuff before he accomplished his gathering. Mr. Buck, if I were you, before I used the obvious knowledge level of your colleague, Mr. Horan, you might be better served to ask Mrs. Dora Flack for her support again. What have you to loose?

I had taken on the task of counting and then listing, the questions that numerous readers have asked you and that were not given the common courtesy of a reply. The list grew too large.

Some have started to worry Mr. Buck that you have had your bluff called and have folded. Surely they jest, as there are some unanswered questions, that if and when you choose to answer them, should be most entertaining.

With all this serious discussion, lighter comments are called for.

An old man I have known for over fifty years and who has hunted almost every day of those years, told me the other day of recently seeing a sight in the woods, he had never seen before. He was about to doze off under a tree, when he was startled by the crashing sound of a running animal, He sat up just in time to see a small deer go dashing by. He said he has had deer run by many times before, but this was the first time he saw one running with it’s tail between it’s legs. Oh, the deer. It was not a fawn or a doe. It was a buck.

May we look forward to your return, Mr. Buck?

Oh Oh! found another one.
In the illustration pages in Mr. Buck's book he has a photograph of a person he claims is William Phillip's mother Celia Mudge. He gives credit to "Rocky Mountain House" on page125 he gives credit to the "Historical Society of Michigan", can't be both. He implies the person looks like William Phillips in drag. Mr. Buck and Mr Magoo.

For those of us who have learned you should check his work he has made it virtually impossible to do here. The Historical Society of Michigan must have published thousands of pages of material and he has omitted to give the issue number and the page number in this particular issue. I wounder if this omission is deliberate.

We should make a game of this with the person discovering the most discrepancies in work his crowned the new foremost authority.

Dan
Letters to the Editor http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages...
NOLA Quarterly, January-March 2002:
Dear Editor:

The photo undoubtedly came from Boyd Charter, the son of Bert Charter. That much we can agree on. Boyd told Pointer that from what he could recall of what his father had said he could identify Butch Cassidy, Tom McCarty, and John Griffith (as well as his own father), but he could not remember the other names. Anne Charter, Boyd's daughter, told me earlier this year that her grandfather was in the photo, but that Pointer had supplied the other names. Pointer established the date of the photo as circa 1889, perhaps in the fall. How did he make that determination? He speculated that the gathering was a celebration of the 1889 Telluride bank holdup and the establishment of the Wild Bunch as a gang. (That the gang was ceremoniously founded, like a Masonic lodge, is a dubious sentiment.) Although the holdup did indeed happen in the summer of 1889, the participants, Matt Warner, Butch Cassidy, Tom McCarty, and perhaps Bert Charter, were hardly a gang, and they soon scattered. More importantly, it was years -- the mid-to-late-1890s -- before Butch, Sundance, the Logan brothers, and Ben Kilpatrick, all of whom Pointer placed in this supposed 1889 photo, were associated (and by then the McCartys and Warner were out of the picture, so to speak). In other words, Pointer speculated that these famous
outlaws were in a photo together, he speculated over the date, and he speculated over what the heck might have brought them together. But he had little evidence

-- Daniel Buck

(Anne Charter, Boyd's daughter, told me earlier this year that her grandfather was in the photo,)

Boyd Charter had four children’ 1 girl 3 boys none of whom were named Anne. His only daughter’s name is Katherine (Kit), she has never been called Anne by friends or family.
Obviously, Mr. Buck does not check his sources of information. One would think that our foremost authority on Butch Cassidy would thoroughly investigate his source before quoting them.
Mr. Buck was never told by Boyd Charter’s daughter, Anne, that Pointer supplied the names.
He’s never met Boyd’s daughter Anne, she doesn’t exist.

This is to jerry Nickle.

You say Dan Buck has written a book. What's the title? I would like to read it.

You also say that in this book Mr. Buck credits both Rocky Mountain House and the Historical Society of Michigan for a photo of Celia Mudge. You say that both sources can't be credited for the photo. That's just not true. Most historical photos are in the public domain. A print of a photo may be available from more than one depository or private collection. For example, there are probably a dozen sources for a print of the well-known photo of the Wild Bunch members who posed in formal attire at Fort Worth. Authors generally credit the depository or collection from which they obtain a print.

Also, in crediting sources of photos, authors rarely give more than the name of the depository or the collection. Seldom do you see them list an issue or page number of a publication where a photo may have appeared.

Richard Patterson
Of course the book I am referring to is DIGGING UP BUTCH AND SUNDANCE and his wife is the accredited author. I accept what you say I didn't know that, but that issue must have more information than just that photograph. How can I check the information that comes with the photograph with what little information he has given us?

You have a lot of credibility with me and I thank You.

Jerry:

For Celia Mudge's obituary, see:
http://newspapers.rawson.lib.mi.us/chronicle/ccc1916%20(E)/issues/04-14-1916_1.pdf.

If the Historical Society of Michigan did publish an article on her, email them, and you probably can obtain a copy. The HSM website is http://www.hsmichigan.org/

Good luck

To Mr. Patterson:

It is nice to see a reply from someone, who apparently has enough respect for others, to give an answer, without the attempt to belittle those with opposing views. Very welcome indeed.

To clarify his reply, I would like to know if Mr. Patterson is speaking for himself, or is he acting as a spokesman for Mr. Buck. His reply does seem just a bit odd, since the only other comment I could find from him in all this, was back on January 1st. Also the question and comment, from Mr. Nickle, would appear to be the only one I could find, that by answering, makes Mr. Buck appear to be in the right.

Possibly Mr. Patterson, whether speaking for himself or Mr. Buck, would be kind enough to arrange for the numerous other questions presented here for Mr. Buck, to be accorded an equal response. Of course it should be said, there is the possibility, their answers may not show Mr. Buck in such a favorable light, as does the only one, of many, that was selected for a reply.

Years ago when I was required to take exams, I had to answer all the questions, not just the ones I liked or made me look good.

Thank you.

Sorry for my absence, had to run a few errands. A few comments:

First, Jerry, re the Celia Mudge photo, you’re making this way more difficult than is necessary. The photograph of Mudge (reproduced in DIGGING UP BUTCH AND SUNDANCE in the photo section following page 212) was credited to Rocky Mountain House because that’s where we obtained it. Generally speaking, when you publish a photograph you cite the source where you obtained it, which in this case was Rocky Mountain House.

There is no photograph on page 125 (do you actually have the book?); on page 125 there is a discussion of our receiving in the mail “a magazine published by the Historical Society of Michigan” that contained a photograph of Celia Mudge.

Second, Jerry (again), the photograph of Etta Place in the Kelly collection at the Marriott Library is here?
http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Photo_Arch_Five&CISOPTR=38&REC=2

The caption on the image itself (assuming we are speaking of the same image) is “ETTA PLACE Mrs. Kid Longbough of ‘Wild Bunch.’” On the library’s page, someone has added “likely a Browns Park girl named Ann Bassett.” I’m not sure what your point is. Ann Basset wasn’t Etta Place.

Third, Jerry and Queen Ann, Jerry’s original point relayed from his “anonymous e-mailer” many, many posts ago was that it was only after the 1969 movie that James Horan to “jumps on the SV bandwagon.” That’s wrong. I repeat. That’s wrong. It’s the other way round. The movie followed Horan, not to mention Chapman and Kelly. They all wrote about the San Vicente story long before the movie came out.

The fact, Queen Anne, that Horan got a lot of other things wrong is irrelevant to Jerry’s assertion. By the way, some of Horan’s many errors are discussed in DIGGING UP.

Fourth, to all who are still stewing over the following, read it again:

==========
Q: How come Butch's sister Lula Parker Betenson said he came home in 1925 if he didn't?

A: At the time Lula made her claim, many people believed that Butch had returned, so she may have seen no harm in simply inventing a visit to trump Hollywood and write a book with a better story of how Butch, "the sainted abbot of the world's largest gang of outlaws" (as she once described him), defeated death. A more charitable explanation is that age had corroded her memory -- that is, some relative had visited the family's home in Circleville, and decades later that person became Butch in her mind. (Memories are memories of a memory, as the neuroscientists like to say.) In any case, most of Butch's immediate kin, including his father and other siblings, said he never returned.
==========

The operative phrase is a “more charitable explanation,” that is, in our opinion she made up the story of Butch returning home in 1925 (just like she made up the story of Butch meeting Sundance and Etta in a bar in Mexico City), but if one wants to be charitable, maybe “age had corroded her memory.” We are not saying, as some of you seem determined to infer, that in fact she was, as Queen Anne put it, “feeble of mind,” we’re answering a commonly asked question, “How did Lula get it wrong?” Most probable explanation: she invented it. Ameliorating explanation: her memory went south.

Thus, if you want a tree to bark up, it’s that Lula – of sound mind and ace memory – invented the story of Butch’s return.

Fifth, E.G., in my letter published in the NOLA QUARTERLY January-March 2002, I mistakenly identified Anne Charter as Boyd’s Charter’s daughter. She was his daughter-in-law, the wife of his son Bert. I spoke with her on February 12, 2001.

Sixth, Bob, the source for our asking Dora Flack if tales told by Harry Longabaugh, Jr., might have influenced Lula Parker Betenson is in our article, “Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can’t Decide,” chiefly the paragraph anchored by endnotes 38 and 39. As for your comment that our writing a letter to Dora Flack “was most inappropriate and totally unnecessary” – say what? – why wouldn’t someone interested in learning about the history of Butch Cassidy communicate with Lula’s co-writer? Who would be a better source?

Seventh, Queen Ann, just because we think Lula invented the story of Butch’s return in 1925, doesn’t mean she can never be quoted on any subject. Read “Did Butch Cassidy Return?” Everybody’s story is told; everybody’s opinion is registered. Yes, we concluded Butch did not return, but we presented every point of view we could find.

Seventh, Robert, I have no idea what your point is. My comment was that the assertions that Butch Cassidy was William T. Phillips, that Hiram Bebee was the Sundance Kid, and that Butch Cassidy returned in 1925 are wrong. Allow me to go even further. There are more than fifty different stories of Butch’s demise on three continents over a seven-decade period. All but one are horse pucky.

All the b

All stories are “HORSE PUCKY” except our story. You don’t sound like you are very convinced of your views, Mr. Buck. If you don’t believe in yourself, who will believe you?

I will try to be concise and not take almost three weeks to accumulate such a pile of “horse pucky”.

Quoting one of your replies, “As for your comment that our writing a letter to Dora Flack “was most inappropriate and totally unnecessary”– say what?–Why wouldn’t someone interested in learning about the history of Butch Cassidy communicate with Lulas co-writer? Who would be a better source?

That is “horse pucky” Mr. Buck. If you were truly interested in “ learning history about Butch Cassidy”, what value would you gain from one who co-wrote a book with a lady, you now publicly state was a liar. What would you think if I, “being interested in the history of Butch Cassidy”, wrote your co-writer, and asked her, if she thought you were a liar? After your stating, you had been referring blog readers to the location of the “mind” comments, from the onset of these discussions, one could easily arrive at such a conclusion.

You say a commonly asked question is, “how did Lula get it wrong?” Would you have any interest in how many times I have heard people ask, how can someone who has proven absolutely nothing, write a book describing his failure, appear as “the authority”, etc. I must admit I don’t have an answer. Do you?

The bottom line of all this, you have not and most likely never will, prove your opinion. To make it worse, you have put an unbelievable amount of effort into proving all “others” wrong. You have failed on both counts, Mr. Buck.

As has been asked of you before. Let us say Lula was the biggest liar the West has ever seen. She didn’t have a clue as to who Butch Cassidy was. Dora Flack, since she co-wrote with Lula, is also a liar. Every member of the Parker/Betenson family never spoke the truth. All others with views that say you are wrong, are all full of “horse pucky”. Let us say this is all true. Does it prove your point, Mr. Buck? Does it replace the deceased German, with Bob Parker? Not in the least. It adds nothing to your theory and you know it.

Future results and your eventual rewards, could be much better, if you would direct all your efforts to proving what you say over and over, instead of wasting time trying to prove all others wrong.

If you would honor me with just one truth full answer Having never proven what you claim and likewise, having never proven others wrong, what, in your opinion, is your greatest accomplishment?

All the b

Dan
Glad your back hope your errand run was successful.

I do have your book and I did mean the discussion. Will you identify the issue number discussed?

I'm not claiming Ann Bassett was Etta Place. I pointed to that photograph because I thought people on this forum would like to see it. Did you know a Butch Cassidy inscription was in that collection before I pointed it out?

In the 1949 issue of DESPERATE MEN Horan doubts the SV account of their deaths. And you failed to mention that.

I think you will agree Butch was the leader of the world's largest gang then, which makes lulu's claim right. Again if Butch wasn't who was?

What the farther and Siblings told outsiders would be different than what was discussed inside the family. Butch was still a fugitive. What would you expect them to tell outsiders? By the time Lulu wrote her book it had all changed, Butch was dead and it was time to set the record straight. And as a bonus make a few dollars selling the book like you do selling yours.

Lulu didn't make up the story about Butch meeting Sundance in Mexico, Butch did she was just quoting Butch, and I think Butch was protecting Sundance because he was a fugitive also.

Dan
Fifth, E.G., in my letter published in the NOLA QUARTERLY January-March 2002, I mistakenly identified Anne Charter as Boyd’s Charter’s daughter. She was his daughter-in-law, the wife of his son Bert. I spoke with her on February 12, 2001.

Ok Dan, we've ruled out Boyd’s daughter Anne as your source, because of a mistaken identity. That leaves Boyd’s son, Bert’s wife as your source. Only problem with that is none of Boyd’s sons are named Bert. First you mistakenly identified Anne Charter as your source, then you say your source was Boyd’s daughter-in-law, the wife of Bert who is nonexistent.

Larry Pointer's IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY. The man said to be Butch is wearing a bowler hat. (It's not Butch, but that's another matter.) Per the Charter family (as well as Pointer), the photo originally came from them. The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that Bert Charter is in the photo.

(Per the Charter family)
I suspect it wasn’t simply a matter of mistaken identity when you identified Anne Charter as the daughter of Boyd, after all his own daughter should know who identified the men in the Pointer Picture. Now you say it was the daughter-in-law, I suspect that is an effort to show that we still have a family member, who is not far removed from actual knowledge of who identified the men. When you finally tell us who your source was, I believe we will find she is a little too far removed from the event, for you to attempt to convince us that a Charter told you with certainty that the men in the photo were identified by Pointer.
I suggest you remove your references to the Charter Family as your source for disputing who was or wasn’t in the picture. After all, it does bring to question the accuracy of your sources.
I’m curious as to why you would go to such lengths to prove the photo is a phony, is it a professional thing or just an obsession?
By the way, I’d advise you to fully research as I did, your conversation of February 12, 2001 before you respond. I’ll give you a little clue, one of Boyd’s sons passed away over twenty five years ago, that leaves two sons neither of which are named Bert.

Dan

We are patiently waiting for your response

Fellow Blogers
A visitor to my web site sent me some Butch Cassidy related photos. He enhanced them with a computer and it has improved the quality considerably. I will be glad to share them with you, just email my web site and I will send the enhanced "Forth Worth Five" photo to you by return mail
http://www.sundancekidhenrylong.com/

Dan,
Are you sure you got it right this time?

NOLA Quarterly, January-March 2002:
Daniel Buck
(Anne Charter, Boyd's daughter, told me earlier this year that her grandfather was in the photo,)

Inland Northwest History:
I mistakenly identified Anne Charter as Boyd’s Charter’s daughter. She was his daughter-in-law, the wife of his son Bert. I spoke with her on February 12, 2001.
Posted by Daniel Buck | 20 Oct 3:25 PM

NOLA Quarterly, January-March 2002:
*CORRECTION: Anne Charter was Bert Charter's daughter-in-law; she was married to his son Boyd.

Would you please post a transcript of your conversation on February 12, 2001, with Anne Charter.
Anne Goddard Charter wife of Boyd Charter daughter-in-law of Bert Charter is still alive and well. Anne may want to respond to your version of that questionable conversation.

E.G. :

Having always believed, it is proper to offer a helping hand, even to someone who is apparently struggling, to explain, what he thinks he may have done. May the following suggestion be offered.

Could you please list ALL members of the Charter family. This will allow Mr. Buck, by using the process of simple elimination, to properly identify who he, if he did, actually spoke to. There, of course, can be no doubt as to the value Mr. Buck places on this conversation, with the expertly defined, and incredible accuracy of his statement.

A fine example of how to search for “history” and how proper research is done.

I just saw an interesting banner, while watching the World Series. It said "EXPERTS ARE IDIOTS".

Bob,
What I believe needs to be addressed, is the fact that only a few months after Mr. Buck was allegedly told by Anne Charter, that Pointer picked the names in the picture. He has forgotten the relationship between Anne Charter and Bert Charter, yet, he has not forgotten that she told him that Boyd Charter told, "Pointer that from what he could recall of what his father had said he could identify Butch Cassidy, Tom McCarty, and John Griffith (as well as his own father), but he could not remember the other names".
Mr. Buck has on numerous occasions referred to this conversation to support his contention that Pointer supplied the names. Reliable sources have told me that Larry Pointer emphatically denies that he supplied the names. Mr. Buck implies that Pointer admitted the picture was a fake. “The photograph of 18 men plus Butch sounds like the one published on p. 133 of Larry Pointer's IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY. The man said to be Butch is wearing a bowler hat. (It's not Butch, but that's another matter.) Per the Charter family (as well as Pointer).”
Mr. Buck obviously considered his conversation with Anne Charter extremely important. Are we to believe that from February 12, 2001 until his article appeared in the NOLA Quarterly, January-March 2002, he has forgotten the relationship between Anne Charter and Boyd Charter, yet, can quote that conversation word for word. Mr. Buck 1st. identified "Anne Charter as Boyd’s daughter", after it was pointed out to him, that Boyd didn’t have a daughter named Anne, he said, "Anne Charter was the daughter-in-law, the wife of his son Bert", and finally although not posted here, but on Letters to the Editor. "*CORRECTION: Anne Charter was Bert Charter's daughter-in-law; she was married to his son Boyd". If Mr. Buck actually spoke to Anne as he claims, it certainly was not face to face, and therefore, had to have been by telephone or mail.
As evidenced by Mr. Bucks interaction with Mr. Nickle and others, about their exchanges of emails. "By the way, while rooting through our Etta Place files, I came upon a lengthy exchange of emails back in 2000, Posted by Daniel Buck | 25 Sep 5:27 AM". Obviously, Mr. Buck has kept a record of all the correspondence he has received. He no doubt recorded his telephone conversations or made extensive notes, and therefore, should be able to provide us with a transcription of that conversation with Mrs. Charter. As he has so eagerly shared word for word his email exchanges with Mr. Nickle in this forum. As I said before, it brings to question his sources and the accuracy of statements he attributes to those sources.

To Mr. Daniel Buck:

First of all, please address my question only after you have answered the requests that have already been presented. I do not wish to butt in.

It is fascinating to read the many questions posted for Mr. Buck and then to follow how he does, or does not, answer them.

I will ask just one question.

Allow me to briefly explain, as it has already been asked. In reading and rereading the numerous postings, one question caught my eye. Not necessarily the question but what the answer would reveal. Oct,20 the following was asked of Mr. Buck. “Would he tell the readers what he considers his greatest accomplishment”. That is a fair request I feel, especially of one who has the title of The Foremost Authority, in his field. I won’t pretend to know enough to ascertain the correctness of this lofty title. Though one has to believe, by having that honor bestowed on him, he has done things, no one else has ever achieved.

My question-------name one.

To all Posters:
A few of you may not know that we have succeeded in our efforts on behalf of the State Library Division of the Wyoming Department of Administration and Information to obtain an appropriation from the state legislature to digitize Wyoming newspapers from 1849 to 1922. The funds became available July 2006 and digitization has begun. So far we don’t know the completion date, but the effort is called the Wyoming Newspaper Project and it will make thousands of newspaper articles available on line in an easily accessible format, similar to projects that now exist for Utah and Colorado. The state is supposed to post progress reports at www.wyonewspapers.org.
I’m especially interested in the project because of a mystery involving newspaper coverage of Butch Cassidy’s and Al Hainer’s trial in Lander, Wyoming in early July 1894. Although Larry Pointer, Dora Flack (Lulu Parker Betenson’s co-author), and I were all able to obtain many of the court documents generated by the case, none of us were able to locate newspaper coverage of the trial by Lander’s weekly paper, the Fremont Clipper. I thought I had found it when some years ago the Wyoming State Archives, the American Heritage Center, and other depositories made available the Clipper’s back issues on microfilm. In fact, the table of contents for the microfilmed files indicate that the Clipper’s issue for that week was included. However, on viewing the film itself, I found that the newspaper for that period (the trial ended just before or on the 4th of July) was missing. I brought this to the attention of archivists, and none had an explanation.
The most likely explanation is that when the actual newspapers were gathered together for microfilming, somebody lifted the issue containing the report of the trial. When I asked a local Lander historian about this, he said he thought at one time he saw a copy of that issue of the Clipper, and the trial wasn’t mentioned. He added that it could be that Butch Cassidy was not yet well enough known at that time to warrant newspaper coverage. I can’t accept that, because I have copies of letters written by both the prosecuting attorney and the judge who tried the case, and both mentioned how excited the town was because there were rumors that Cassidy’s friends might try to engineer his escape. In fact, the prosecutor, Will Simpson, says that the judge, Jesse Knight, was so worried he wore his pistol under his robe during the trial.

Thank you, to Mr. Patterson for sharing some interesting and very informative information. It should also be noted, he presented what he had to say without any negative comments directed at any other individual. If one wishes to see how unusual this presentation of information is, please take a moment and read the many responses from Mr. Dan Buck, that appear thru out this blog. Apparently Mr. Patterson feels what he has to say, will stand on it’s own merit. That it should.

It was nice to see Mr. Patterson pointing out having worked with Mrs. Dora Flack. When it became apparent that Mr. Patterson was working with Mrs. Flack, for the true purpose of obtaining historical information and not trying to use her, to help show Lula Parker Betenson was a liar, it is even more meaningful. Clearly there are different tactics to “search for history”. Right and wrong.

Perhaps Mr. Buck will remember how Mr. Patterson, in a most creditable way, presented his thoughts. That is when he eventually responds with answers to previously submitted questions. A couple are listed below.

The lady from the Charter family, who Mr. Buck claims he communicated with in 01, but now does not even know her name. This has become as difficult as locating Etta. Though Mr. Buck says he has spoken with Mrs. Charter, he just doesn’t know her name. I don’t believe he claims to have spoken to Etta. Yet.

A newcomer asked Mr. Buck to share what he considers his proudest accomplishment. Someone else mentioned, with his position of being “foremost” he must have a memory full of outstanding achievements. Someone even asked for just one.

Thank you Mr. Patterson

To all Posters

In my post of 28 October about attempting to find the article in the Freemont Clipper’s archives pertaining to Butch’s trial, I apparently confused at least one reader. I did not work with Larry Pointer or Dora Flack in researching material in Lander, Wyoming. As many of you know, our efforts were years apart. Their books were published in the 1970s, mine in 1998.

Thank you Mr. Patterson for your clarification. I admit, with my mind being corroded with age, I am misled and confused easily.

I am aware of when the authors, being discussed here, had their books published. When you stated “Although Larry Pointer, Dora Flack (Lula Parker Betenson’s co-author), and I were all able to obtain many of the court documents–etc.”, I thought historians/authors pursued historical data at times other than just when they were writing a book. I hope I did not put you in an uncomfortable position, by my misunderstanding you had worked with Mrs. Flack. In my effort to compliment you, I apparently confused and misled you also.

Your promptness in clarifying a “confusing” point is appreciated.

If any other “historian/author” would like to clarify, as Mr. Patterson has done, his own creations of concern and confusion it would, as well, be appreciated by many.

Thank you.

E.G., lapsus memorae times two. Mea culpa. Yes, Anne Charter was Boyd’s wife and Bert’s daughter-in-law. Never write on the fly.

As for the photograph reproduced on p. 133 of IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY, Larry Pointer identified figure no. 5 as Bert Charter, which is also what Anne Charter told me during our 2001 conversation. But, as is often the case with antique family photographs, it’s not quite that simple. A member of the Charter family emailed us in 2005, saying figure 5 might be Bert’s younger brother, Ernest, whom they said was nicknamed “Kid Charter.” To complicate matters further, in her 1999 book COWBOY’s DON’T WALK, Anne Charter said that Bert was nicknamed “‘Kid’ or ‘Kid Madden.’” The only point everyone agrees on is that the photograph originally came from the Charter family.

Regardless of which Charter might be figure no. 5, however, it has nothing to do with fevered speculation that the other 18 people depicted were famous outlaws. But if one wishes to believe that they are the Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch, the entire cast of Laurence Olivier’s RICHARD IIII, or Django Reinhardt’s Quintette of the Hot Club of France (plus 14 bystanders), I will not stand in the way.

Jerry, the article in question is: Barbara Wood, “Butch Cassidy’s Mysterious Michigan Connection,” CHRONICLE” HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF MICHIGAN, vol 13., no. 1, Spring 1977. Another essay of interest: Jim Dullenty, “Possible Breakthrough on William T. Phillips,” WOLA JOURNAL, vol. IV, no. 3, Winter-Spring 1995.

A good book on the Bassett sisters, by the way, is Grace McClure, THE BASSETT WOMEN (1985).

As for the first edition of James Horan’s DESPERATE MEN, he presents two different versions of Butch Cassidy’s death in South America, one in San Vicente and the other in Mercedes, which is what I said in my September 27 post. Thus, I don’t understand your point.

Happy Halloween,

Dan

Dan admits Anne did not tell him Pointer supplied names.
The arrogant, Mr. Buck has once again insulted our intelligence. The question was, did Anne Charter tell him, Boyd Charter identified his father Bert Charter, Butch Cassidy, Tom McCarty and John Griffith, and Larry Pointer supplied the other names.
His answer is a flagrant attempt to evade the question. He no doubt does not have the proof to support his claim.

Dan, If you read her book you should recognize this, it can be found on page two. You should seriously consider including a similar disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER
Because factual accuracy is neither my forte nor my goal; because people relate differently to the same or similar experiences; because memory does not record the way a camera does; and because even photographs, videos, and written history can distort, I am including some space in this book so you, the reader, can write your own version of events, comment when you disagree, or start your own story to hand on to descendants.

We've been in the planning stages for over a year, but we haven't
started scanning yet, so no newspapers are available online yet. Within
the next year we will have some available. The newspapers are available
on microfilm at the Wyoming State Archives
http://wyoarchives.state.wy.us/ and you can borrow the film from the
University of Wyoming library, if you can't make it to Cheyenne to use
them at the Archives.

Erin

______________________________
Erin Kinney, Digital Initiatives Librarian
Wyoming State Library
516 S. Greeley Hwy.
Cheyenne, WY 82002
Email: ekinne@state.wy.us
Phone: (307) 777-6332
http://will.state.wy.us/
http://gowyld.net/
http://wyonewspapers.org/
http://wyominglibraries.org/
______________________________
E-mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of public
business, is subject to the Wyoming Public Records Act and may be
disclosed to third parties.

Mr. Patterson:

Thinking how good the information would be from this wonderful new source you point out in your Oct 28 4:48 AM comments, I immediately contacted the above mentioned library. I was surprised to learn, it will be a year before any information will be available.

Then the thought crossed my mind, why now Mr. Patterson? In the midst of others trying to obtain answers from Mr. Buck, you present information that is wonderful to know, but apparently will be of no use for almost a year. I am an older lady, I may not live that long.

Just wondered.

Queen Ann

Dan
We have talked Horan to death, let's put him in that grave with Churchill, and talk about something else.

To Queen Anne

I’m sorry to hear that you’re concerned that you may not be around when the Wyoming Newspaper Project is completed. I’m sure I speak for all posters to this blog when I say I hope you are still with us.

As to why I mentioned the Project? First, other readers of this blog may still be around when the Project is finished and may want to make use of the information it will make available. Also, a blog like this should be an important source of information about Butch Cassidy and how to obtain it, not just a vehicle for nurturing obsessions with Dan Buck or any other contributor.

Dan Buck and Richard Patterson

Both of you are professional Butch
Cassidy historians. So will each of you review my posts entered on 14 and 16 Oct? They are titled, TOM MCCARTY TO THE RESCUE and THE SHOOTOUT IN CORTEZ. Dan I found your reviews can be harsh but I would still like yours.
Thanks
Jerry

Mr. Patterson:

I have no quarrel with you and do not wish to establish such.

Defending my comment about the “timing” of your information. There seems to be a slight difference in our interpretation of words. You use finished and completed, in your response. I read, “Within the next year we will have some available”. With all due respect, Sir, I see a slight difference. I agree, this blog should be a source for (accurate) information. It is just odd you made your announcement so far in advance. I have had babies with less notification.

I am not militarily minded, but a man I know is. He suggested we are seeing what is called a diversionary tactic. Too complicated for me.

This is the first I knew I had an obsession. Having the experience of knowing some accomplished and very successful individuals, I have always found them to take pleasure in being “asked” to discuss their achievements. (I will state, I recall none of them telling me how good they were, without being asked) They did seem to take pride in what their honest, hard work had gained them.

This having been noted, I don’t understand the problem you suddenly have developed with my (and others) asking one, who has stated, “only “I” am not full of horse pucky, “I” am the only one here who is right, “I” am the foremost authority”, there are many more examples, but I am sure you get the picture--------- one simple question.

That is, what achievement he feels is his greatest.

To me, it goes without saying, he should be honored there is an interest in what he feels this achievement is. I have a feeling, in his mind there are many. I am seeking to learn of just one.

May I politely add, if I am obsessed, by asking one simple question, are we dealing with one, who is equally afflicted, by not answering the question? Just a thought.

If we are going to be frank and honest here, yes I admit I am obsessed. I am obsessed with the dislike I have for arrogant individuals.

Most sincerely.

Queen Ann

To Jerry Nickle:
I’m honored that you seek my opinion on your two posts. I assume it involves to what extent do I think they support your theory that Henry Long and Harry Longabaugh were one and the same. I’m not the one to ask. My work primarily has been on Butch. I’ve left Sundance up to Donna and Paul Ernst.

E.G., go back and read my letter: Anne Charter told me during our 2001 conversation that Boyd Charter had identified his father Bert in the photograph, and that Larry Pointer had supplied the other names. Boyd Charter told Larry Pointer a slightly different story, that his father had identified three of the men in the photo, plus his father Bert.

None of this proves anything other than that people have different recollections of the same event, which of course is exactly the point Anne Charter made on page two of her book.

And in any event, none of this helps in establishing the identities of the men in the photograph, apart from Bert Charter. Figure five looks like Bert Charter – I think it is him – but even on that score there is some disagreement. There’s disagreement among family members as to whether “Kid Charter” was Bert or his brother Ernest, and as to which of them is in the photograph. Maybe both of them are. Something to write about in the space Anne Charter allowed in the back of her book.

Jerry, as for your posts “Tom McCarty to the rescue” and “The Shootout at Cortez,” as far as I can tell, you’ve laid out a skein of stories of several families living Utah and Colorado during the same period who may or may not have known each other. Why don’t you take it further, and write it up as an article for publication.

All the best,
Dan
P.S. Don't forget to vote on Tuesday.

I have to make two corrections. The first white child born in Wayne County Utah was Andrew Allred's son Marion Allred. The first Mormon Bishop of Circlevill Utah was William Allred, James T. S. Allred was captain of the Circleville Militia.

Dan, as far as getting anything published, I wouldn't know where to go or what to do, and I'm not sure any publisher would find it that interesting anyway.
How are you going to vote? Just curious.

Richard, I have your book BUTCH CASSIDYand I have Donna Ernst book SUNDANCE MY UNCLE. I use both books in my research. I am sure Donna Ernst doubts my Henry Long, Harry Longabaugh connection, I would expect her to, but if she would engage in discussing my theory it would really make my day. I have a lot of respect for both of you. Hoping she will engage I should add this.

Ernest Morrell was my grandmother Chloe Morrell's youngest brother. He was a baby on that 1891 aborted trip to Mexico. Ernst's granddaughter, who is still alive, told me that my grandmother told her years ago that the Morrells met Henry long on this trip, he had a bullet wound in his leg, Luzernia treated the wound and he returned to Fremont with the Morrells. I cannot prove it but I think Henry Or Harry was a survivor of that gun fight and this where he received that leg wound.

Dan, Richard, and Donna please evaluate this.

Dan,
I suggest you re-read your answers to the question's. You haven't fooled anyone with all of your double talk. You expect us to believe that because you say it happened, it must be true. The truth is, that you suggested Pointer supplied the names, and the lady who you couldn't remember how she was related to Bert Charter, politely said I guess he could have. You sir, have missed the whole point of this exercise.

We know why you made the photograph an issue, to discredit Larry Pointer. If you had any real interest in the photograph, you would have discovered that the identification of the men in the photograph, and the location o! f the photograph had been made long before Pointer ever knew about it.

There is no disagreement among the Charter Family as to who is in the photo. That''s another story we no longer care to share with you.

If you care to continue this discussion go right ahead, every time you reply you stick your silver slippers further into your mouth. I sir, do not fear you or your mighty pen.

Consider this Mr. Buck, not everyone agrees with your underhanded methods of controlling what is written about Butch Cassidy and the Western Outlaws.

Dan
E.G. is referring to am article you wrote and was published in The NOLA Quarterly January- March 2002. Will NOLA offer their publication to E.G. so he can enlighten those readers as he has enlightened us here.

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To Jerry Nickle
I can understand your interest in obtaining the opinions of others on your theory that Harry Longabaugh and Henry Long were one and the same. But as I said in my previous post, I just can’t help you. Because of lack of time, I’ve limited my current work to the circumstances surrounding Cassidy’s trial in 1894. I’ve not engaged in any research on Longabaugh since I wrote my book on Cassidy, and then I relied heavily on the work of Donna Ernst who, with her husband, Paul, are clearly the authorities on Sundance.
In fact, they are about to publish another book on the Longabaugh family.

Best wishes to you,

Richard Patterson

When will your book be available as I will be one of the first to purchase it.

Mr. Buck has made a career of criticizing and picking apart other people's work and opinions. He has unlimited access to the publications. It appears any thing he submits is published. The people on the other side of the argument do not have access to the publications and cannot respond to him. Do the Parker/Bentenson side have unlimited access? How about Larry Pointer or his defenders? How about those people that would defend William Phillips? Can these people respond to Mr. Buck In the publications he uses to criticize?

Can the Buck critics point out his flimsy evidence for his South America scenario in the publications.

I would like for him to pick apart my theory here where I can respond but he will not do that. If he ever picks apart my theory in a publication I will not be able to respond, I have no access.

Jerry, either the NOLA JOURNAL or the WOLA QUARTERLY would appear to be your most likely forums. As for your lamentation that the “people on the other side of the argument do not have access to the publications,” get thee to a library. There are many books and articles in print on behalf of the various pretenders to Butch and Sundance’s shoes, including William T. Phillips, Hiram BeBee, Frank Ervin, Walter Morgan, and the 1925-returned Butch Cassidy (Lula’s Butch). Kerry Ross Boren alone has penned a couple dozen articles.

As for your lamentation that if you do publish something your theory that Henry Long was the Sundance Kid will be picked apart and you won’t be able to respond, I suspect you are half right.

Dan

Jerry;

Does anyone here know who Kerry Ross Boren is? He posted in my guestbook.

P.B.G.

P.B.G.
Dan referred to Boren he should tell us.

To P. B. Gottfredson
For Kerry Ross Boren, go to Google and type in his name.

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Kerry Ross Boren has written numerous articles regarding Western History. Among other things, he was involved in Robert Redford's THE OUTLAW TRAIL, and was a founding member of, I believe NOLA. He has been for a number of years, serving time in the Utah State Penitentiary, having been convicted of murdering his wife.

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Dan
On 20 Oct, we were discussing the Etta Place photo and the caption in the Charles Kelly collection. You said someone added "likely a Browns Park Girl named Ann Bassett". I think If someone else besides Kelly did that it would just about be a crime. What makes you think someone else did that, who and what was the motivations?

Thank you people for the information regarding Mr. Boren. My curiosity has been satisfied.

I wish I had something to contribute to your discussion here, but my area of expertise is the Black Hawk War in Utah. I was given permission to post my email should there be any interest in this subject. phil@blackhawkwarutah.com

Kindest regards to everyone, and I hope you can resolve this amazing debate.

Phillip B Gottfredson

Hi,
I have some questions about Phillips.
Why Phillips as an alias?
Was there a Phillips in the gang that rode with them in the U.S.?
Was there a Phillips that went to Bolivia?
Could either men have used this name as an alias in South America?
Could Phillips have stayed in South America?
Thanks, I'm asking for personal reasons.

Hi,
I have some questions about Phillips.
Why Phillips as an alias?
Was there a Phillips in the gang that rode with them in the U.S.?
Was there a Phillips that went to Bolivia?
Could either men have used this name as an alias in South America?
Could Phillips have stayed in South America?
Thanks, I'm asking for personal reasons.

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To J. Solarz

As to your post re William T. Phillips and Cassidy, this is my opinion based on sources I consulted in 1997.

Your questions:

“Why Phillips as an alias?” --- William T. Phillips was apparently not an alias. His death certificate listed an L. J. Phillips as his father. The evidence is also strong that he was born in Michigan on June 22, 1865.

“Was there a Phillips in the gang that rode with them in the U.S.?” --- If you mean Cassidy’s gang, I’ve seen no evidence of a Phillips in the Wild Bunch, but Phillips’ wife said he knew Cassidy, and Phillips’ manuscript “Bandit Invincible” suggests he was familiar with Cassidy’s exploits. Phillips wife denied that he was Cassidy).

“Was there a Phillips that went to Bolivia?” --- Possibly, but not William T. Phillips as far as I know.
“Could either men have used this name as an alias in South America?” I’ve seen no evidence that Cassidy used the name Phillips in S.A. or elsewhere, although Larry Pointer claims Cassidy’s sister, Lulu, told him that her brother did at times use Phillips as an alias. (Yet she also denied that her brother was William T. Phillips.)
"Could Phillips have stayed in South America?" --- Not likely. Too many witnesses knew him or saw him in Washington and Wyoming in the 1920s and 1930s.

Comment: Although there was some facial resemblance between the two men, which could have accounted for persons who had once known Cassidy to think they met him again 25 to 35 years later, Phillips was a much taller man, possibly four to five inches taller. Also, there is evidence that Cassidy was in South America at the time Phillips was married to Gertrude Livesay in Adrian, Michigan.

Mr Buck's Jan 3 entry informs us Phillips's height was measured twice, 5'101/2" and 5'11. Were these measurements taken with shoes or boots on? Cassidy was measured at 5'9", was this measurement taken barefooted? Both men could have been the same height.
How did Phillips come by Butch Cassidy's keepsakes? See Tom Affholter"s entry on 27 Jun

To Jerry Nickle

First of all, Jerry, note that in responding to the poster's questions, I said these were my opinions. You are welcome to take them or leave them. Anyway, here goes: According to the National Osteoporosis Society, for normal men the average loss of height between ages 30 and 70 is a little over one inch. If osteoporosis is a problem, it can be over 2 inches. Phillips was in his 60's when his height was given. Most people have at least some osteoporosis by then. On the other hand, Butch was only 28 when he was measured on entering prison.

Of course we don't know for sure if either man had his shoes off when measured, but when Phillips was measured during a physical exam in the mid-1920s, at that time a physical exam for a healthy person usually consisted of: listening to the lungs; looking in the ears, mouth, and rectum; inspecting the fingernails for discoloration; and some poking in the abdomen for tenderness. In my opinion, the examiner would not have had Phillips take off his shoes. As to Cassidy, his prison photo shows him fully dressed, as was the custom for prison inductees.

More subjectively, as I recall throughout their lives Phillips was considered "tall" and Cassidy, "short." Frankly, from looking at pictures of Phillips in his younger years, I would indeed call him tall. Again, my opinion.

As to Phillips having Butch's "keepsakes," there is strong evidence that Phillips visited Wyoming multiple times in the 1920s and 1930s, allegedly following Butch's trail and looking for clues to where some of the Wild Bunch's stolen loot might have been hidden. He could have picked up "keepsakes" from Butch's former associates, friends, and girlfriends. Also if, as Mrs. Phillips said, her husband knew Cassidy in the old days (and who knows, he may have ridden with him at times under an assumed name), that's how he could have ended up with some of Butch's "keepsakes." Again, just an opinion.

The above is not proof, of course. However, the evidence of the two mens' birth, thousands of miles apart, is difficult to ignore, as is evidence that Butch was in South American when Phillips was married.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Jerry, I haven’t a clue who or why someone typed “likely a Brown’s Park girl named Ann Bassett” on the Marriott Library’s Digital Collection website. You might write the library and ask. Ann Bassett, by the way, got herself married to H.H. Bernard on April 13, 1904, in Craig, Colorado, a fact inconvenient to the idea that she was Etta Place.

Let me add a comment about “Butch Cassidy’s keepsakes.” There is no evidence that the gun and ring that William T. Phillips owned (which are I assume what are being described as the keepsakes,” see Pointer, pp. 28 and 29) ever belonged to Cassidy, save the fact that someone had made certain inscriptions on them. As any antiquarian will tell you – with a loud guffaw – a famous outlaw’s mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn’t belong to the outlaw.

The best facial comparison, by the way, between Cassidy and Phillips is the former’s 1894 mug shot (Pointer, p. 26) and the latter’s 1916 portrait (p.234). Those are the best, hatless, and chronologically closest photographs of the pair. The differences are obvious.

Larry Pointer, when last we were in touch, had dropped the idea posited in his book IN SEARCH OF BUTCH CASSIDY that Phillips was the famous outlaw for an even more elaborate theory, that there were three Butch Cassidys – Robert LeRoy Parker, who died in Bolivia in 1908; William T. Phillips, who died near Spokane in 1937; and Robert Parker McMullin, a supposed half-brother or cousin or something to Robert LeRoy Parker, who supposedly died in Nevada supposedly sometime between the 1930s and the 1950s.

Dan

P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

Sorry about the multiple posts. I kept getting a message saying it failed to post. I guess not.
Dan

To Jim, the blogmaster

I, too, get error messages almost every time I try to post. Sometimes the post takes, sometimes it doesn't.
I think the blog gears need a squirt of WD-40.

Dan
Without proof or motive you have charged forgery, very unprofessional. So I will go with Kelly wrote the caption "likely a Brown's Park girl named Ann Bassett"

You can not prove the gun and ring were never owned by Cassidy. The gun and ring have never been on public display or offered for sale. For you to suggest someone forged those inscription to increase the value is irresponsible. Cassidy left two inscriptions in the Capital Reef Monument, Baker has a picture of another one in her book. Cassidy inscribed his name on things. Whats wrong with Mr. Patterson's suggestion?

I see on Donna Ernst web site Harry Longabaugh marked his cloths "H L" with worsted thread.

You said "a famous outlaw's mark inscribed on an antique is proof it didn't belong to the outlaw" is that your standard for proof?

Among outlaw historians and buffs have made many accusations. Do you have many friends left in this community? If so list them here it won't take much space.